16-07-2003 21:04									#61
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quote: what exactly is shaping your opinion on the subject?

History and common sense. Prohibition doesn't work.

	16-07-2003 21:14									#62
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You know, you make it sound as if the 4-yr old kid had a CHOICE as to which parents he/she would get.

I've never been attacked by a belligerent stoner, but plenty drunk a55holes have yelled stuff like 'I thought only pretty girls were *****y' when I've not responded to such delicate, witty remarks such as 'You should wear pants made of cling film. I can see myself in them.'

Charming, I must say.

99% of drunk a55holes have no idea that they're drunk a55holes.

	16-07-2003 21:39									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Don't worry. He'll be calling for a ban on alcohol next. Again. He works in cycles, you see.

	17-07-2003 06:36									#64
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Response edited by Ming...

Apocalypse... your response was over the edge. Learn to attack the arguments... NOT THE POSTERS.

And I would recommend you check your PM's as well.

Last edited by Ming on 17-07-2003 at 09:23

	17-07-2003 06:53									#65
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aint it an actually fact that non-criminal problems related to alcohol dropped during prohibition? werent there less cases of men abusing their wives and children? a very liberal history teacher i had would admit that prohibition did succeed in this regard and this was backed up by two other history teachers though i have never seen any statistics to this effect

	17-07-2003 06:59									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

men abusing their wives and children is a criminal problem!!!

	17-07-2003 07:01									#67
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Apoc, stop being a total tool. It isn't my job to decide what people can and can't have. I'm not their ****ing momma. If people want to do hardcore drugs then I say let 'em. Who am I to say no?

	17-07-2003 07:07									#68
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Imran:

quote: If people want to do hardcore drugs then I say let 'em. Who am I to say no?

two things... one, you should care about people... people can be stupid sometimes and do things (or they don't have the taught constraints and all that) that will harm them... secondly, what about the drug addict's kids, etc.?

like i've said before, libertarian ideas can work but not now in 2003... people don't got families or communities no more... they dont got anyone teaching them how to live a good life and all that... once we have everyone growing up in a happy home, we can say that people should be able to do what they want... until then, all we got is the fatherless, poor, and miseducated running around doing drugs and what not.

	17-07-2003 07:09									#69
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Two words, people:

NATURAL SELECTION.

	17-07-2003 07:12									#70
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quote: one, you should care about people

I do... therefore I allow them to make their own choices.

quote: secondly, what about the drug addict's kids

What about alcoholics' kids? What about down syndrome's kids?

I'm not everyone's mommy, so don't expect me to act like it!

	17-07-2003 07:22									#71
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again imran...

quote: like i've said before, libertarian ideas can work but not now in 2003... people don't got families or communities no more... they dont got anyone teaching them how to live a good life and all that... once we have everyone growing up in a happy home, we can say that people should be able to do what they want... until then, all we got is the fatherless, poor, and miseducated running around doing drugs and what not.

that is the flaw in the libertarian arguement... it trusts that everyone has a brain and a conscience (which i do believe) and that these are working perfectly and taught to be working (which i dont believe exists today in 2003). you can not say that a libertarian society works when nobody got pops and their moms are working two shifts and they are left to roam the streets. fix that glaring problem and the libertarian agenda will work, i think... but until that problem gets resolved, it won't.

	17-07-2003 07:27									#72
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Um no, Albert (though that paragraph does just show how ignorant you are ).

I don't CARE if no one has a brain or conscience. They get the right to decide what goes in their bodies. No matter how dumb you are, you own your own body. I'm not going to forbid you from injesting something. I'll tell you that it is bad and the dangers, but I won't forbid you.

You can be as dumb or bad if you want, doesn't matter to me. If you die? Doesn't matter to me.

	17-07-2003 07:41									#73
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Imran but thats wrong... how can you just say, you don't know ****, you dont know anything about what is going on (so your point... "I'll tell you that it is bad and the dangers" is invalid in 2003 as people don't really got nobody telling you what is bad, etc.), so you can just go and do whatever you want...

unless you got some sick motive to keep the poor and fatherless poor and fatherless for countless generations, i suggest you admit that libertarianism does require some sort of education and structure before you allow children into a completely free world.


thanks

	17-07-2003 07:45									#74
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And whose fault is that... the fathers that walk out on their responsibilities... Don't go blame society, other people, drugs or booze for their actions... put the blame where it belongs... on the individual.

	17-07-2003 07:52									#75
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Ming:

but what if the individual is never loved and never taught how to live and all he sees around him is drug addicts and dealers?

	17-07-2003 07:55									#76
	Got spare money?

quote: Imran but thats wrong

Wrong to you... I don't care about your morality .

And what is all this 'libertarian' crap? You think Sava is one? What about the lefties that advocate it? I know you think you can blame everything on libertarianism, but when so many people see the failure that is the Drug War, they decide that this policy sucks.

Though I must say it is amusing being told that I don't know **** from you. Ah, irony... Golden bead of humor it is!

	17-07-2003 07:57									#77
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Any person that walks away from the responsibilities of father hood is the one at fault. There is NO EXCUSE for that. Put the blame where it belongs... on selfish people who care only for themselves... don't go looking for somebody or something else to blame... it's obvious who is to blame... the scum bags that turn their backs on their responsibilites...

	17-07-2003 07:58									#78
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god damn i knew i shouldnt have started my post with that cause now you ignored everything else i said...

how can you just say, you don't know ****, you dont know anything about what is going on (so your point... "I'll tell you that it is bad and the dangers" is invalid in 2003 as people don't really got nobody telling you what is bad, etc.), so you can just go and do whatever you want...

	17-07-2003 08:01									#79
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Ming:

EXACTLY MY POINT!

and the libertarian ideals do not account for that... they assume that everybody will be educated, with a healthy, loved, mind and know the consequences of their actions but the real world don't work like that... maybe when it does, we can have a libertarian society where drugs and prostitution and who knows what else are legalized... but until we got everybody growing up with a happy home and educated, libertarianism only keeps the poor and fatherless poor and fatherless for countless generations

	17-07-2003 08:07									#80
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I read the rest of your post, Albert. Don't be such an *******. I considered it incredibly unworthy of response.

If you want one: I don't give a damn about "what's going on". The people have a right to chose what to put into their bodies. It's part of what America is supposed to be about: freedom.

Btw, what you know about libertarianism can fit into a matchbox... and there would still be room to spare.

	17-07-2003 08:10									#81
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No Albert... the real world is NOT MAKING EXCUSES for morons that abuse drugs, booze, gambling... whatever.
Most people don't... it's the weak and sleezy that do.

The real world is calling them what they are... lazy, selfish, irresponsible jerks. That's not societies fault, it's theirs for not controling themselves...

	17-07-2003 08:13									#82
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Ming

And that is what libertarians do as well. Those that totally **** up and get drunk or high every day and can't do **** are seen as lazy and irresponsible. There can't always be winners, but there are losers in the system and then there are losers, in general.

	17-07-2003 08:13									#83
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wait... who are you calling lazy, etc.? the parents who didnt fulfill their responsibilities or the children who are miseducated and go on to do things?

	17-07-2003 08:16									#84
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The parents that left, leaving their kids to a single family household.

You say kids are 'miseducated'. They should know enough that drugs are bad. Their parents failed them and/or they failed themselves. You don't take drugs right? And you are from the inner city... so how do you explain you?

	17-07-2003 08:17									#85
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The parents that don't accept their responsibilities...

And then if their children grow up the same way... then I'm calling them irresponsible and weak as well.

In the real world, you are responsible for your own actions... no excuses.

	17-07-2003 08:25									#86
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What is you are saying, Albert!? That people aren't smart enough or moral enough to make their decisions!? That the government is the one that ensures intelligence and morality, that the government needs to take the role of the parent and tell adults what they can and can't do!?

This is America. This was a country founded on the ideal of individual freedom. Social costs may sometimes come with it, but the problems do not justify taking our liberty away to live as free people, they do not justify making us accept a parental government. If you want an authoritarian system, check with Sloww if his boat to Cuba has any more room.

	17-07-2003 08:27									#87
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what the hell, Black Dragon?

I'm only saying that what the hell do you do when parents arent there to take care of their kids and teach them how live right?! it's a horrible idea to let these misguided children running around where drugs and all that are even more accessible than they are today! where the hell do you come up with this horrible idea?!

	17-07-2003 08:29									#88
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once you guarentee everyone a happy home and caring parents and/or communities, then we can have full freedoms... until then, misguided children doing drugs and all that is all you'll ever have

	17-07-2003 08:32									#89
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So what you are saying Albert is... that if you life is hard, you are allowed or have the right to mess up and repeat the same mistakes...

No... just because life is tough doesn't mean you aren't responsible to make the right choices. Every person is responsible for themselves... no excuses...

Sure... life is tougher for some, that doesn't give them an excuse to screw up themselves. I've seen many kids from fatherless homes become successes... and I've seen kids from "the perfect home" turn into lossers...

It all comes down to the individual.

	17-07-2003 08:34									#90
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What do you mean, even more acsessible then they are now!? They are acsessible in the urban streets, they are there for the people in the suburbanites, they are there in rural areas. They even get into prisons sometimes. I know I could easily get into drugs if I wanted to start using them, I am sure you could as well.

Drugs are a serious problem in this country. You ask me:

"I'm only saying that what the hell do you do when parents arent there to take care of their kids and teach them how live right?! "

That's a hard question to answer. But what the answer should not be is to take away the freedom of consenting adults to solve the problem.

Ming:

quote: In the real world, you are responsible for your own actions... no excuses.

Bingo!