15-07-2003 20:47									#31
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Pacifism is an admirable ideology... but ultimately impractical. I would not send people to die unless there was a proper justification.

	15-07-2003 20:49									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Of course i would. But i assume that, if i'm asked to make that decision, it is because i am in a position to make it and that i did not get there by chance, but because i was qualified. I would also expect that i knew all along that there was a possibility i could have to make that decision. Did Bush expect to have to give the order to shoot a plane down on 9-11 ? I don't think he expected it. But he knew from the stsrt that there was a possibility.

I am glad that you agree with me.

	15-07-2003 20:58									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed they are expendable when they are faceless statistics. just look at the red army fighting the wehrmacht.

hi ,

thats outdated a bit , would you not say , ......

have a nice day

	15-07-2003 21:01									#34
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I wouldn't send anyone to die if I wasn't willing to go myself, and even then only in very limited circumstances, and I would ONLY send volunteers. No conscripts, even to save the US.

	15-07-2003 21:07									#35
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even to save civilization, the entire human race? What a twisted, demented scale of priorities. How selfish.

	15-07-2003 21:08									#36
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and DF surprises no one.

	15-07-2003 21:09									#37
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quote: even to save civilization, the entire human race? What a twisted, demented scale of priorities. How selfish.

First of all, I said any task I'm unwilling to do myself.

Secondly, be realistic. Do you REALLY think enough people wouldn't volunteer to save the planet?

	15-07-2003 21:10									#38
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I wouldn't send anyone to die if I wasn't willing to go myself, and even then only in very limited circumstances, and I would ONLY send volunteers. No conscripts, even to save the US.

hi ,

might sound noble , but there are times you have to make choices , and choose , wheter one volunteers with it or not , ....

even " conscripts " , ......

have a nice day

	15-07-2003 21:11									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GePap and DF surprises no one.

At least he's consistent.

	15-07-2003 21:11									#40
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quote: might sound noble , but there are times you have to make choices , and choose

Possibly, but since I know that conscription is slavery, and immoral, I refuse to engage in it.

BUT, this is a largely irrelevant tangent. If you want to talk to me about conscription anymore, start your own thread.

	15-07-2003 21:19									#41
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No one is expendable, but then again no one is so special they couldn't be replaced.

It has got nothing to do with 'sacrificing' troops, or sending them to suicide missions. If a leader makes a choice, that this is what we're going to do, he is then cofident his actions are right. Therefore he will go himself too. If not, well.. then there must be a problem.

If mission or plan is looking like it will sacrifice lots of folks.. well then you just have to look at it again and make it better. But to expect no one will die is foolish and weak. Leaders must be strong and show the way, all the way. Tjey must be accept that they can die too. Well that should at least motivate them to make good plans. I don't understand any other way. If leader is making good plans, and he is proud of his troops and sure of its effectiveness and combat abilities, then naturally he should feel the urge to go first. He can't demand things he is not able to do himself. He must be one of the best himself. Good leaders are also good soldiers, or should be. How the heck can he spend all the time making plans with others, then when the time comes he just stays back where it's more safer? He should take the honour of being the first to enter and last to come back. What good leader thinks he is better than the lower ranks? That's not a good leader. And what good leader does not send his best men first chance he gets, but more 'expendable' guys who are not so qualified? Not a good leader. Leader is confident and knows he's right and will succeed. Or then he's not exactly leader material in the first place, damn it!

There is no problem what so ever.

	15-07-2003 21:22									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka No one is expendable, but then again no one is so special they couldn't be replaced.

Pondering whether this is sig material.

	15-07-2003 21:27									#43
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if I only got the chance, there are about six billion people I have a grudge with

	15-07-2003 21:31									#44
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Pekka, I largely agree with you, except for your "no one is so special..." line.

	15-07-2003 21:33									#45
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quote: Pekka, I largely agree with you, except for your "no one is so special..." line.

Isn't sending troops to die against their freedom?

	15-07-2003 21:34									#46
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You don't send troops to die. You send the troops to make the baddies die.

	15-07-2003 21:35									#47
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Not if they volunteered to go.

By "volunteer" I don't mean volunteer for the army in general, but volunteer for the specific military action that lies outside of defending the nation itself, which is implied in joining the army. Obviously, a foreign war requires outside, voluntary funding, as well, and the war has to be in defense of another.

Yes, with so many stipulations, my support for a war is hypothetical rather than realistic.

	15-07-2003 21:37									#48
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Possibly, but since I know that conscription is slavery, and immoral, I refuse to engage in it. BUT, this is a largely irrelevant tangent. If you want to talk to me about conscription anymore, start your own thread.

hi ,

and are you or have you been faced with conscription yet , .......

and yes , you could start a thread about it

have a nice day

	15-07-2003 21:37									#49
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quote: Not if they volunteered to go. By "volunteer" I don't mean volunteer for the army in general, but volunteer for the specific military action that lies outside of defending the nation itself, which is implied in joining the army. Obviously, a foreign war requires outside, voluntary funding, as well, and the war has to be in defense of another. Yes, with so many stipulations, my support for a war is hypothetical rather than realistic.

But you are against the US involvement in WW2. Almost all of the soldiers volunteered to defend their country, AFAIK. In fact, I've heard many stories of kids lying about their ages in order to enlist. Why the double standard?

	15-07-2003 21:37									#50
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You send troops to do a job that needs to be done, even if you know that a lot of them will be killed while performing that job.

And there are plenty of individuals who are far less "special", and far more replaceable. Young males without particular techincal or academic training are a dime a dozen.

	15-07-2003 21:39									#51
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panag,

quote: and are you or have you been faced with conscription yet , .......

I haven't been faced with genocide, either, but I can still say genocide is wrong.

Sava,

quote: But you are against the US involvement in WW2.

Certainly.

quote: Almost all of the soldiers volunteered to defend their country, AFAIK.

A majority of Marines and naval personnel were volunteers. A majority of army personnel were conscripts.

quote: In fact, I've heard many stories of kids lying about their ages in order to enlist.

So?

quote: Why the double standard?

There's no double standard. Conscription existed, and the war was not funded voluntarily.

	15-07-2003 21:41									#52
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd panag, I haven't been faced with genocide, either, but I can still say genocide is wrong. Sava, Certainly. A majority of Marines and naval personnel were volunteers. A majority of army personnel were conscripts. So? There's no double standard. Conscription existed, and the war was not funded voluntarily.

hi ,

what does genocide have to do with conscription , .....

have a nice day

	15-07-2003 21:42									#53
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You asked if I'd faced conscription, implying (in my mind) that I wasn't qualified to have an opinion if I wasn't subject to it.

	15-07-2003 21:44									#54
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Against WWII. I've heard it all now, David.
We pushed for that one to happen, didn't we?
Sad.

	15-07-2003 21:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You asked if I'd faced conscription, implying (in my mind) that I wasn't qualified to have an opinion if I wasn't subject to it.

hi ,

oh boy , ......

and no that was not what was "implied" at all , ......

so , where is that thread about conscription , .....

have a nice one

	15-07-2003 21:50									#56
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He's made a dozen of them in the past, what's 1 more?

	15-07-2003 21:52									#57
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quote: Against WWII. I've heard it all now, David. We pushed for that one to happen, didn't we?

We certainly did.

-Scrap metal and oil embargo against Japan
-Escorting British convoys through war zones carrying war material
-Giving war material to the British to be used against the Germans
-Firing on U-boats on sight
-Radioing position of U-boats to the British

Make no mistake, the embargo against Japan didn't justify Pearl Harbor (although I'd say that Germany had a legit reason to go to war due to attacks on U-boats), but we certainly weren't trying to avoid war.

panag,

The thread is up.

	15-07-2003 22:00									#58
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quote: , and the war was not funded voluntarily.

tell that to the millions who worked their asses off to kill the Nazis...

	16-07-2003 20:53									#59
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Let me clarify my position.

If people are contracted to do risk their lives for a certain cause, then I would not order them (assuming I had the power) to die, or face elevated risk of death, for that cause.

For example, I would ask a fireman to go into a burning building or not, but for me, its his perogative whether he does or not. Obviously, in most cases he will.

Also differentiate there between something that will save a life, a directly productive outcome, and something that will take other lives (i.e. die to make others die) which is directly destructive. Obviously, the outcome of that destruction may indeed be positive, but thats another matter thats irrelevant.

About idealist pacifism, its an interesting thought that if everybody was entirely logical, there would be no armies and there would be no war.

	16-07-2003 20:55									#60
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If I believe that the damage to humanity from my action is less than the damage that would be caused by my inaction, then I will act.