18-07-2003 10:23									#61
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quote: Drake: That attitude is a big part of the reason why the US is disliked so much in the rest of the world.

Let's pull our troops out, then.

	18-07-2003 10:24									#62
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That'd be a bad because it suits our security interests for them to be there. Also I'd like Nintendo to stay around awhile longer.

	18-07-2003 10:25									#63
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would we be accomodating to german customs? generally yes.

why not extend the same courtesy to ones less similar to our own, especially when they are allies and our friends?

allies and friends meet halfway. subjects are the ones who hew to the power's party line.

	18-07-2003 10:26									#64
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quote: Because it suits our security interests for them to be there.

That's debatable in this day and age. Seems that Rummy and Co. think our troops would be better positioned in countries like the Phillipines and Vietnam. Anymore, troops in Korea are more trouble than they're worth.

	18-07-2003 10:27									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed why not extend the same courtesy to ones less similar to our own, especially when they are allies and our friends?

It's the unnecessary whining that pisses people off, Q.

	18-07-2003 10:29									#66
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quote: allies and friends meet halfway.

You aren't talking about meeting halfway. You want the American military to handle itself in full accordance with Korean Confucian values. For example, the U.S. already apologized several times for the truck accident, but the Koreans refuse to meet us halfway and accept the apology. They want a full-out Confucian apology. That's not going to happen and it's pretty stupid of the Koreans to get pissed when it doesn't.

	18-07-2003 10:32									#67
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quote: It's the unnecessary whining that pisses people off, Q.

i understand that. what i don't understand is this unwillingness to just bite one's tongue and be the big one in the relationship.

	18-07-2003 10:35									#68
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quote: You aren't talking about meeting halfway. You want the American military to handle itself in full accordance with Korean Confucian values.

no, that's not what i said. what i said was to put a facade on it to make us look like we were at least trying to accomodate them when we in fact wouldn't be changing a damn thing. look and dress like them, but continue acting as we do.

quote: For example, the U.S. already apologized several times for the truck accident, but the Koreans refuse to meet us halfway and accept the apology.

i do not recall hearing bush apologize for it. if he did, then that's good.
btw, it's only a small faction that wants to see this drawn out. most koreans have either decided it's not worth the effort of protesting, or never really felt offended in the first place.

quote: They want a full-out Confucian apology.

what would that entail?

quote: That's not going to happen and it's pretty stupid of the Koreans to get pissed when it doesn't.

honestly, how much skin is it off our backs to make one single, public apology?

	18-07-2003 10:38									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: It's the unnecessary whining that pisses people off, Q. i understand that. what i don't understand is this unwillingness to just bite one's tongue and be the big one in the relationship.

This is really silly. You live in a little kid world. We needed to play that game during the Cold War. We need to a lot less now. It is not evil to not turn the other cheek.

	18-07-2003 10:39									#70
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quote: what would that entail?

I think you answered your own question.

quote: i do not recall hearing bush apologize for it.

Bush isn't going to apologize. Frankly, it offends American sensibilities when Koreans demand an apology from Bush. The accident was in no way serious enough to warrant a formal apology by our head of state.

quote: honestly, how much skin is it off our backs to make one single, public apology?

The U.S. has made several public apologies. Koreans are just pissed that Bush didn't do it. They want to have the whole issue conform to their cultural norms, which is completely idiotic considering their position in the alliance structure.

	18-07-2003 10:41									#71
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How much skin is it off thier back to decide that we spent enough time and trouble (including my old man sitting under a bridge on the whatever its called river countinng trucks coming into Korea during the war). They can just stop the silliness. If they don't want us there, we can leave. Enough with the cake and eat it too. They need to choose one or the other. That's not evil, its just adult.

	18-07-2003 10:44									#72
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i honestly have no idea how having bush apologize would make it a "confucian" apology.

and does it offend american sensibilities? i'm american, it doesn't offend mine. i'm sure there are quite a few americans who wouldn't give a **** about the apology if it was broadcast in korea. it's a pacifier to stick in the mouths of babies.

quote: They want to have the whole issue conform to their cultural norms, which is completely idiotic considering their position in the alliance structure.

now this, i have to say i'm confused with. i've been told by many that in the alliance, korea and america are equal partners. i've also been told that korea's got many concessions that put it in a slightly superior position.
and this line makes it seem like korea's in an inferior position.
which is it?

	18-07-2003 10:50									#73
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quote: i honestly have no idea how having bush apologize would make it a "confucian" apology.

Western heads of state don't apologize for traffic accidents and would never be expected to. To do so would seem like blatant ass-kissing.

Confucianism, however, makes apologies that would seem weak and unnecessary in the West into an integral part of society. That's why Koreans think it is somehow appropriate for Bush to apologize for the truck incident.

quote: i'm sure there are quite a few americans who wouldn't give a **** about the apology if it was broadcast in korea.

I would.

quote: it's a pacifier to stick in the mouths of babies.

To continue the analogy, parents shouldn't give in to every request a child makes just because they throw a tantrum. Spoiling a child only makes them more incorrigible.

quote: and this line makes it seem like korea's in an inferior position.

In strictly power-based terms, Korea is the inferior partner. America is the big dog that will swoop in to save the little dog, not the other way around.

	18-07-2003 10:59									#74
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quote: In strictly power-based terms, Korea is the inferior partner. America is the big dog that will swoop in to save the little dog, not the other way around.

one is either an equal partner in an alliance or an unequal partner.
now that we've established that korea is the inferior partner, i don't want to hear about the concessions that supposedly put it in a superior position.
in the case of them being the inferior partner, i understand why they'd want to change it be feel like an equal partner.
i also understand the american feeling that the koreans are ungrateful.

quote: To continue the analogy, parents shouldn't give in to every request a child makes just because they throw a tantrum. Spoiling a child only makes them more incorrigible.

and to stretch it past the breaking point, when you hvae an obviously unstable criminal pointing a gun at you and your babies, to deal with the criminal you want the baby to shut the **** up.

quote: Western heads of state don't apologize for traffic accidents and would never be expected to. To do so would seem like blatant ass-kissing.

perhaps.

quote: Confucianism, however, makes apologies that would seem weak and unnecessary in the West into an integral part of society. That's why Koreans think it is somehow appropriate for Bush to apologize for the truck incident.

i can't say i agree with the feeling behind the first half of this.
but yes, some koreans do think it's appropriate. most don't care.

	18-07-2003 11:05									#75
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i give up. i won't convince any of you, it seems like you don't want to hear --any-- bit of a korean viewpoint, and you're not convincing me.

let's let this thread die, and chalk up another sad and tragic incident on the d-less dmz.

	18-07-2003 11:08									#76
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quote: it seems like you don't want to hear --any-- bit of a korean viewpoint, and you're not convincing me.

We know the Korean viewpoint. We just happen to think that it's retarded.

	18-07-2003 11:13									#77
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quote: We know the Korean viewpoint. We just happen to think that it's retarded.

great. i'm glad it was necessary for you to spell that out.