17-07-2003 18:53									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten My stats are from the Anti-Defamation League, not the FBI. Are you saying you don't trust a Jewish defense league to report hate crimes against Jews?

And I referred to the FBI stats. Any problem there? Ah yes, sources:

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4243_12.asp

quote: The Audit identifies both criminal and non-criminal acts of harassment and intimidation, including distribution of hate propaganda, threats and slurs. Compiled using official crime statistics, as well as information provided to ADL's 30 regional offices by victims, law enforcement officers and community leaders...

While they have additional sources, I doubt they can get much information from their regional offices etc, unless the case has a high profile like this:

quote: What was so disturbing about the way law enforcement handled the Los Angeles airport case was not the hesitancy to quickly call the murders terrorism or a hate crime, but the statements they made unnecessarily that there was no evidence that the attack was a hate crime.

http://www.wujs.org.il/activist/fea...igns/when.shtml

	17-07-2003 18:54									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If you're anti-Israeli and not anti-semetic, why would you attack random Jews on the street as described in the article?

Because those young people do not even know what anti-semitism is, that is hating people just because they exist. They identify themselves as the brothers of the Palestinians, and they identify the Jews as the enemis of the Palestinians; therefore, they believe that they have a reason to hate the Jews seen as the enemies of their brothers. This is not racism.

	17-07-2003 18:55									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The article is simply more hysterical French-bashing, with the Jews as the convenient pawn.

Odd then that it would be published in the generally liberal and multilateralist Washington Post.

Which definitely covers hate crimes in the US, whether involving Jews, Blacks, gays, etc.

One of the problems was that for some time France attempted to avoid even reporting these as hatecrimes.

I note that the French Jewish community finds this a major problem, and that emigration from France to Israel has notably picked up - extraordinary to see a significant migration to Israel from a wealthy, Western country.

And has hersh has pointed out, the French govt FINALLY also sees this as a major problem.

	17-07-2003 18:56									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If you're anti-Israeli and not anti-semetic, why would you attack random Jews on the street as described in the article?

Indeed. Attacking random jews because of anger over Israel is antisemitism. What else?

	17-07-2003 18:57									#35
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quote: While they have additional sources, I doubt they can get much information from their regional offices etc, unless the case has a high profile like this

Why would you doubt the ability of the regional offices to gain information? If I'm a Jew who has just been harassed, the ADL is the first place I would call.

quote: This is not racism.

Yes it is. Hating an entire ethnic group because of the actions of some members of that group is racism, plain and simple.

	17-07-2003 18:59									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Because those young people do not even know what anti-semitism is, that is hating people just because they exist. They identify themselves as the brothers of the Palestinians, and they identify the Jews as the enemis of the Palestinians; therefore, they believe that they have a reason to hate the Jews seen as the enemies of their brothers. This is not racism.

You could use the same construct to claim that your average 19th century proletarian antisemite just considered jews as the enemies of the working class because of some jewish "capitalists". You don't need a degree in bungle-boo Rassenkunde to be a racist.

	17-07-2003 18:59									#37
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Indeed. Attacking random jews because of anger over Israel is antisemitism. What else?

Attacking people who have no connection to the event or place you are angry about simply because they fit a particular racial type can be seen as vaguely racist, yes. Don't be so obtuse Roland. It doesn't suit you at all.

	17-07-2003 18:59									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Because those young people do not even know what anti-semitism is, that is hating people just because they exist. They identify themselves as the brothers of the Palestinians, and they identify the Jews as the enemis of the Palestinians; therefore, they believe that they have a reason to hate the Jews seen as the enemies of their brothers. This is not racism.

"Because those peasants do not even know wht anti-semitism is, that is hating people just because they exist. They identify themselves as children of Christ, and they identify jews as murderers of Christ; therefore, they believe that they have a reason to hate the Jews seen as the enemies of Christ. This is not racism. "

Every bigotry attempts to justify itself in some fashion. That a Frenchman is defending this bigotry, and claiming its not racism, is part of the problem.

	17-07-2003 19:03									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Attacking people who have no connection to the event or place you are angry about simply because they fit a particular racial type can be seen as vaguely racist, yes. Don't be so obtuse Roland. It doesn't suit you at all.

Uhm... Dino dear, that may be so unusual you can't imagine it, but I was agreeing with you.

	17-07-2003 19:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten [ quote: This is not racism. Yes it is. Hating an entire ethnic group because of the actions of some members of that group is racism, plain and simple.

You are wrong. Any time you have a reason for hating people, you are possibly a bad guy acting wrongly or even a criminal, you are not a racist. The truly horrible thing which makes racism different from all other crimes, is that you hate people just because they exist.

	17-07-2003 19:05									#41
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Uhm... Dino dear, that may be so unusual you can't imagine it, but I was agreeing with you.

	17-07-2003 19:05									#42
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quote: You are wrong. Any time you have a reason for hating people, you are possibly a bad guy acting wrongly or even a criminal, you are not a racist. The truly horrible thing which makes racism different from all other crimes, is that you hate people just because they exist.

God I hate French people.

I'm not a racist, though, as I hate the French for a reason, namely this post.

	17-07-2003 19:05									#43
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"Any time you have a reason for hating people, you are possibly a bad guy acting wrongly or even a criminal, you are not a racist."

So if I hated Turks for looting Austria in the 15th-17th century, that would not be racist?

	17-07-2003 19:18									#44
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I dont know what are hate crimes, I am just defining racism.

Hersh, if your hate is directed to those who perpetrated the looting, it is not racist, and anyway they are dead. :

	17-07-2003 19:27									#45
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"if your hate is directed to those who perpetrated the looting, it is not racist"

And if it is directed against today's Turks (who can't possibly have anything have to do with it), it is racist.

	17-07-2003 19:34									#46
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "if your hate is directed to those who perpetrated the looting, it is not racist" And if it is directed against today's Turks (who can't possibly have anything have to do with it), it is racist.

Considering that you have no reason for hating those Turks, and that they are racially different from you (I suppose), yes, it is racist.

	17-07-2003 19:42									#47
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Well I have a "reason": What their ancestors did. How is it different for random jews in France being held "liable" for what Israel does?

	17-07-2003 20:13									#48
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DAVOUT, you'd better just give up. It's possible that you're just not explaining yourself well enough, but suffice it to say that to hate a French Jew because of what's happening in Israel is racist. It's the exact same thing as if Americans hated all Arabs because of what happened on Sept. 11.

	17-07-2003 20:15									#49
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well I have a "reason": What their ancestors did. How is it different for random jews in France being held "liable" for what Israel does?

You have noticed that those events are directly connected to the conflict. These young people do not held the French Jews liable for what Israel does, they take side with the Palestinians against people they consider as on the side of Israel. They would do the same to black, yellow or white people if the Palestinians were fighing against black, yellow or white people, which means that they attack the French Jews not because of their race, but because of their (supposed) alliance with Israel.

The cause of their stupid attacks is political, not racist.

Incidentally, when one state is too closely identified to a race and a religion, it creates the conditions for such confusions to happen. And it is in nobody interest to give an extended definition of the racism; there are enough occasions to meet it without putting the infamous label on crimes which do not qualify for.

	17-07-2003 20:18									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT These young people do not held the French Jews liable for what Israel does, they take side with the Palestinians against people they consider as on the side of Israel.

And they consider them on Israel's side because they are jews. If they only attacked zionists (jewish or not), they'd be purely politically motivated thugs. But so they are racist thugs.

	17-07-2003 20:39									#51
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What you guys need to understand is that 99 % of antisemite violent (or not) acts come from Arab populations. There are 4-5 millions of Arabs in France and only 600,000 Jews in France.
The average French isn't more antisemitic than ppl from other countries.

	17-07-2003 20:39									#52
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler And they consider them on Israel's side because they are jews. If they only attacked zionists (jewish or not), they'd be purely politically motivated thugs. But so they are racist thugs.

This means that only racist attacks can be perpetrated against Jews. I dont believe that, and I am sorry for the French Jews if they do.

	17-07-2003 20:47									#53
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That's a classic non sequitur.

	17-07-2003 20:47									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Felch DAVOUT, you'd better just give up. It's possible that you're just not explaining yourself well enough, but suffice it to say that to hate a French Jew because of what's happening in Israel is racist. It's the exact same thing as if Americans hated all Arabs because of what happened on Sept. 11.

I will give up when the meaning of racism will be : hating people for things on which they have no responsibility. Until that, racism means hating people just because they are racially different from me.

Problems improperly defined cannot be solved.

That said, I am sure that I am not explaining myself well enough.

	17-07-2003 20:53									#55
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DAVOUT, your justification of these acts by saying they're the Israelis cause makes me sick. The only thing that motivated those Arabs was hate and anti semitism.
Anyway, EVEN if the Israelo-Palestinian conflict was the cause of all this, it would still be anti semite acts.

	17-07-2003 21:16									#56
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quote: Originally posted by D' Artagnan DAVOUT, your justification of these acts by saying they're the Israelis cause makes me sick. The only thing that motivated those Arabs was hate and anti semitism. Anyway, EVEN if the Israelo-Palestinian conflict was the cause of all this, it would still be anti semite acts.

I have so badly expressed myself that you can write that I have made a justification ! What I wanted to do was a non racist EXPLANATION, not justification. I am not advocating that these young Arabs are right, I said that they hate Israel and their allies amongst whom they count the French Jews for political reasons, and they need not to feed their hatred to anti-semitism or racism.

Who could believe that the Palestinians need more that political reasons for hating Israel ? And the Arabs here just mimic the Palestinians. The fact that the religion, the race and the nation makes the confusion possible continuously makes just the analysis more difficult, but nobody can think that replacing all Israeli Jews living in Israel by North Koreans would make the Palestinians happy.

	17-07-2003 21:22									#57
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Well from a quick google search, I found: May 27, 2000 Pennsylvania Arson destroys a synagogue in Philadelphia Jan. 1, 2001 Nevada Arson damages the same Reno synagogue that racist Skinheads tried to firebomb in November 1999. I'm sure there are more. Unfortunately, it would be strange if this thing did not happen.

Stopler: did you notice how the US media reported all of these incidents? Shouldn't you take back the, apparently untrue and unfounded, accussation that the US media ignores events like this?

	17-07-2003 21:36									#58
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In another note that the Arab thug who beat up Jews and committed arson was released pending trial when he was so clearly a violent offender and a danger to the community is inexcusable. Someone should lose their job for that especially since this a-hole went out and committed more crimes. The to add insult to injury the French courts only gave him 3 years (and I bet he serves less the 50% of that before he is paroled).

This makes me so angry. Hate crimes are especially heinous and this piece of sh!t committed a violent hate crime which is the worst of the worst and still he won't spend any meaningful amount of time behind bars. The judges should be making examples of these criminals and throw the book at them. Instead they show the thugs a revolving door we're they commit gross crimes, spend a short stay in jail & get out, commit more crimes, briefly in jail & get out, repeat ad infintium...

	17-07-2003 21:37									#59
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This is making appalachians into the Himalayas.

MOst certainly this spike in anti-semitic incidents is worrysome: and certainly the French government and media are very well aware, as aware as anyone in the US is about our own porblems: As for the French Jewish community: I doubt that any time soon it will stop being the biggest in Europe, or one of the most integrated into its surrounding society, or that any time soon all of the Jews wil run for Irsael, anymore than Jews in NY will run for Israel.

As for the Arabs: I think their anti-semitism is of a new brand: it is somewhat like the anti-semitism you have in NY among, many African-Americans, singling out one successful minority by another one that feels (sadly, ussually rightly) that society at large is failing them. It is easier to pick on another minority than on the whole central system. The Israel-Palestine issue only "adds" justification, so that the men doing this can think they are doing it "for their fellow arabs", even thought that is not the reality.

	17-07-2003 21:57									#60
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Oerdin, the last time a cop incidentally shot and killed an Arab there were riots in the "ghettos" for a week at least.
You have to act smooth with them if you don't want them to become crazy : look at the ME...

Gepap I agree with u with the fact that the Israelo-Palestinian conflict is a fake justification for these French Arabs.
They actually don't give a sh!t about Palestinians but it's a way to show their hatred against the Jews.

Also, you have to had jealousy to that : as u said, Jews are very assimilated in France and the most usually area part of the highest class of the society. Unlike Arabs, who don't even want to be assimilated. I have respect for the older generation who came in France in the sixties and managed to find jobs.
But, now young Arabs are hopeless. All they care about is regrouping into gangs and make trouble everywhere. They have respect for no one. That's the biggest reason why the far right went so far in the last presidential elections.

But the new government has done well so far with criminal acts reduced of 10 % compared to 2002 and antisemitic acts diminishing (word ?) a lot as well.

The government is still scare of them though , ie Chirac pro-arab policies.