25-07-2003 02:57									#31
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This had better not effect Sony Classical.

	25-07-2003 02:59									#32
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Did the report also provide earnings data? And does Home and Entertainment include console and PC games?

	25-07-2003 03:01									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Did the report also provide earnings data? And does Home and Entertainment include console and PC games?

It provided general earnings data for the company, but does not break it down by division. By next quarter, they're doing that (they're restructuring to be more like GE, so each division has their own executives and management and finances and quarterly reports).

And H&E includes PC games as well, as does Sony's division (the article mentioned PlayStation, but what they're talking about is Sony Computer Entertainment -- it's exactly the same thing as MS' Home & Entertainment).

Sony's figures include Everquest, for example.

	25-07-2003 03:02									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Asher They also mention lowered costs of Xbox production reduced costs of production in general.

Well I had a discussion with Dan about that. Basically we don't (didn't?) know how much the production costs of a single X-Box is, so we can't tell whether X-Box makes more business sense than does PS2.

	25-07-2003 03:05									#35
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You guys actually argued "if it makes business sense"?

The Xbox is not planned to make a profit until 2005. Although J. Allard and other execs have hinted that costs have fallen faster than anticipated and game sales have been higher than anticipated, too...

The amount of money it takes to keep the Xbox eating away from Sony and Nintendo's marketshare is small beans to MS, and MS wants to keep their hands in as many markets as possible to ensure they don't miss the boat.

	25-07-2003 03:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You guys actually argued "if it makes business sense"?

Hellooo? You were the one who started a financial thread about Sony you know.

quote: The Xbox is not planned to make a profit until 2005. Although J. Allard and other execs have hinted that costs have fallen faster than anticipated and game sales have been higher than anticipated, too...

So we still have zero facts about X-Box's profitability. Sony has a lot of projects that are supposed to make a profit in the future, several of them way bigger than X-Box.

quote: The amount of money it takes to keep the Xbox eating away from Sony and Nintendo's marketshare is small beans to MS, and MS wants to keep their hands in as many markets as possible to ensure they don't miss the boat.

Yeah, I noticed MS also sells wrist-computers nowadays.

	25-07-2003 03:22									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Hellooo? You were the one who started a financial thread about Sony you know.

Of course, but I think it's a bit silly to argue if the Xbox makes business sense. The video game sector is the only major one that grew over the past 3 years, and it's growing fast. It's a huge potential income source, and at the same time it can defend against a push by Sony.

Computers and the living room are slowly converging, you know, MS wants to get in the attack from both sides.

It's not about making "business sense"just yet, it's strategic sense.

quote: So we still have zero facts about X-Box's profitability. Sony has a lot of projects that are supposed to make a profit in the future, several of them way bigger than X-Box.

Like what? The PlayStation 3? The one that's been delayed due to complications in the CPU development that's running late and overbudget? The one that's massively parallel, one thing game developers absolutely despise with the PS2?

Not to mention the enormous costs of it. Toshiba and Sony are spending $1B+ on a dedicated fab plant for the graphics chip for the PS3. Plus the insane R&D for the custom-parts is a huge development bill. It costs MS a fraction of the money to R&D the Xbox and Xbox2 than it does for Sony to do the PS2 and PS3.

quote: Yeah, I noticed MS also sells wrist-computers nowadays.

And Motorola is going to start selling MS cell phones soon.

And MS just signed a deal with TimeWarner cable and Comcast for set-top boxes.

And digital movie theatres are starting to use Windows Media to show videos, and high-definition DVDs have been released in Windows Media...

	25-07-2003 03:26									#38
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Hey Colon... it is ridiculous to argue about whether the Xbox is making a profit or not. It is well known that Microsoft has been losing close to $100 for every Xbox sold. The idea is to spend enough money to secure a good portion of the market that will be profitable later.

Sony did exactly the same thing with the original playstation. The PS2 is more popular because of what Sony spent marketing the original playstation.

The Xbox now is unquestionably a better system as far as hardware and power, and is beginning to catch the PS2 in terms of developers and standout games. KOTOR is freakin' sweet, Halo2 will be better, Fable, HL2, GTA on Jan 1 2005. Regardless of what the numbers are now, Microsofts marketing strategy for the Xbox will start turning a significant profit a little down the road.

*Aside* I personally love MS's strategy for the Xbox. Through several of their promotions, and knowing a few people, I have now purchased 2 Xbox's, 5 games, a live kit, and another controller for ZERO dollars. You can't complain about that.

Just my 2 cents...

	25-07-2003 03:28									#39
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Vice City is supposed to be out on Xbox for Holiday 2003.

	25-07-2003 03:29									#40
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And I hope this temporary decline in profits does not affect Sony´s personal digital assistant market... I just bought a $350 dollar Sony CLIE... they are the best on the market....

	25-07-2003 03:30									#41
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The PDA market shrunk 20% last year, Fez...

	25-07-2003 03:33									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The PDA market shrunk 20% last year, Fez...

Was that the entire market? No wonder why they are cheap now..

	25-07-2003 03:36									#43
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They're cheap because they were a fad, I think. People are realizing it.

I always found them remarkably annoying.

What would I use it for? To put in a calendar or something? Hah...don't need it.

I've got myself a nice laptop that's actually useful. Even has wireless broadband internet for free at school...lasts 7 hours on a battery.

	25-07-2003 03:37									#44
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Well I needed one because I am terribly disorganized with notes an dates, and didn´t want to get a laptop as I don´t have the money for that.

	25-07-2003 03:38									#45
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I had a PDA... I lost it... Never used it. So, I wouldn' be getting another one.

	25-07-2003 03:39									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Of course, but I think it's a bit silly to argue if the Xbox makes business sense. The video game sector is the only major one that grew over the past 3 years, and it's growing fast. It's a huge potential income source, and at the same time it can defend against a push by Sony. Computers and the living room are slowly converging, you know, MS wants to get in the attack from both sides. It's not about making "business sense"just yet, it's strategic sense.

So what do you mean if you say it's about strategic sense and not business sense? It's supposed to make a profit right?

quote: Like what? The PlayStation 3? The one that's been delayed due to complications in the CPU development that's running late and overbudget? The one that's massively parallel, one thing game developers absolutely despise with the PS2?

Like interconnecting and integrating every single product in Sony product range and taking it into the broadband era. Does it makes sense? Don't know, but it surely doesn't lack in ambition and they can take the credit for having created this vision long before the Silicon Valley whizzkids thought of it, and standing by it.

quote: And Motorola is going to start selling MS cell phones soon. And MS just signed a deal with TimeWarner cable and Comcast for set-top boxes. And digital movie theatres are starting to use Windows Media to show videos, and high-definition DVDs have been released in Windows Media...

Yes, I already told Dan MS is going to suffer from Imperial overstretch. Take away Windows and MS Office and how much earnings does MS still have?

	25-07-2003 03:43									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Colon So what do you mean if you say it's about strategic sense and not business sense? It's supposed to make a profit right?

Xbox? No. Xbox2? Yes...

quote: Yes, I already told Dan MS is going to suffer from Imperial overstretch.

But Sony even does life insurance, how could you stand by Sony in an argument then blast MS for entering a market that's remarkably similar to what they're used to?

quote: Take away Windows and MS Office and how much earnings does MS still have?

Take away PlayStation and how much earnings does Sony have?

	25-07-2003 08:11									#48
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Sony is like Sun Microsystems, they are a big ship that have sort of just gone of course and don't know where the hell to go.

Can they find their way back home?

	25-07-2003 11:09									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Colon Still waiting for X-Box's earnings data...

The funny thing about MS is it can flush all the money it wants into unprofitable enterprises like the X-Box and keep doing it until they have a #1 position and the segment is profitable. Why can they do theis? Because they have the single most profitable monoply on Earth; they literally mint $6B-$12b a year in profit and they have almost $50B worth of money just stored away for a rainy day.

MS's pattern is to start small and just keep investing until they lead a segiment and other people find it very, very hard to compete in a price war agaisnt a company which has, for all intents and purposes, all the money it can ever use.

	25-07-2003 11:11									#50
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Uh...PDA != Fad

It's like a computer to go...except that it will eventually be rendered obsolete by wearables, wireless tablets, or the such

not a fad but just a short-lived innovation

	25-07-2003 11:12									#51
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Oerdin--good point. Microsoft could give away XBoxes for free and it still wouldn't give a ****. (Eventually they might get the antitrust attention again though )

	25-07-2003 11:19									#52
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So when's Microsoft gonna start selling vehicles and running for-profit hospitals?

	25-07-2003 11:27									#53
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The interesting thing is Chrysler got bought for around $20B (most of it was financied because Daimlier Benz didn't have the cash while MS has $50B just sitting around so if Bill wanted to get into the auto business they could easily afford to buy two of the world's largest automakers and pay cash for them.

If they wanted to get creative and start financing then they could become a monster in just about any field they wanted to.

	25-07-2003 11:34									#54
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That's what concerns me, Oerdin. If MS wants to, they could pretty much become the world's first planetary monopoly in a number of areas. It wouldn't happen overnight; it'd be a process much like when IE supplanted NS as the dominant Web browser — slow, but insidiously sure simply due to leverage.

Gatekeeper

	25-07-2003 11:38									#55
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IM a proud owner of an X=Box

	25-07-2003 11:42									#56
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The best thing for MS to do would be to start its monopoly in the law business. No more antitrust!

	25-07-2003 19:14									#57
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Coming next: Microsoft Bananas

	25-07-2003 19:23									#58
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Sony is like Sun Microsystems, they are a big ship that have sort of just gone of course and don't know where the hell to go.

That is my opinion as well. Companies are in business to make profits. Corporate Japan in general has lost focus on this fact of life. There are very few exceptions (Toyota is one that is impressive).

Some tech companies state-side like Sun Microsystems lost this focus long ago as well. But there are a lot of companies state-side that have never lost this focus. M$, GE, IBM, etc.

	25-07-2003 19:37									#59
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PS2 sales aren't bad, just not what they were 12 months ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3092795.stm

"More than 50 million PS2s have been shipped since the console was launched in Japan in March 2000.

By comparison, Nintendo's GameCube and Microsoft's Xbox, are languishing around the 10 million mark.

Sony's rivals may take some satisfaction from the figures showing a slowdown in sales of the PS2.

Shipments of the console dropped by 42% to 2.65 million units for the April to June period, compared to the same time in 2002.

The large drop is partly due to bumper sales of the console this time last year. A wave of drastic price cuts led to a surge in demand as people snapped up the machines.

This year, prices have remained more or less static, so it is hardly surprising that sales are down compared to 2002.

"The PlayStation had a very good period last year," explained Mr Drozd. "Prices have got to the point where it is difficult to lower them further."

He said the next boom in console sales will come when the next generation of machines are released in two or three years' time.

Instead, console makers will be concentrating on services like online gaming to boost their bottom line."



Anyone remember Sega? The crunch will come when a console fails to sell and whether Sony can carry a failure and come back with a success afterwards.

	25-07-2003 19:43									#60
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quote: Instead, console makers will be concentrating on services like online gaming to boost their bottom line.

IOW, expect Sony and Nintendo to clone Xbox Live, despite their constant bashing of it this generation.

The 42% drop is more than the other consoles, though. The PS2 is reaching market saturation point.

Holiday 2003 will be especially interesting...it's a shame Halo 2 is now Q1 2004, otherwise I'd say the Xbox would've had a chance to outsell the PS2 consistently for the season.