30-07-2003 20:59									#31
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quote: Though if I was going to mess around with things like that, I would make the "immortal" the bowman (immortals were apparently lightly armed archer types, not badass swordsmen).

Persia had a group of elite warriors called 'immortals'. There were exactly 10,000 of them. When one died, they replaced him with another one.

I put the traits of China to Militaristic, Scientific. I'm not saying the other traits don't fit, I just think those two fit the best.

IMO Mao did great things to industrialize and modernize China but he also was a murderer who stamped out Chinese culture, religion, and confucism. I think one of the great ancient emperors would be a better choice.

The problem with GePap's idea is that Persia is my long-time favorite civilization (starting out with AoE 1 several years ago) and I like the traits they have now. Plus, I think Rome could be commercial, it would still fit, and there's nothing wrong with Persia being industrial and scientific because those traits aren't frequently used.

	30-07-2003 22:47									#32
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Indeed what reading can we rely upon? Who is doing the writing? I mean Mussolini made the trains run on time, was he good for Italy?
I would agree he had an enourmous impact on China, one could make the case that is was not positive.
Anyway, sorry about the OT. I will stop mine now.

	30-07-2003 23:27									#33
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They really should have had Emperor Qin as the leader for China. Makes a lot more sense since he was the one that began China's existence as a single empire when he conquered the warring states.

But if they have Mao as the leader, they might as well included a "Cult of Personality" wonder.

	31-07-2003 09:24									#34
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quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod IMO Mao did great things to industrialize and modernize China but he also was a murderer who stamped out Chinese culture, religion, and confucism. I think one of the great ancient emperors would be a better choice.

And Stalin did great things to industrialize the Soviet Union? In either case I would not call a process that resulted in the deaths and relocations of millions as "great". I hope no one suggests using Pol Pot to represent Khmer.

Since Civ starts in ancient times I think using the first emperor to be best. However, it might be more interesting to change leaders as the eras change in the game (to use China as an example: First Emperor, the Dowager Emperess, Sun-Yat-Sen, and then Mao).

	31-07-2003 10:34									#35
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I like the idea of changing leaders over years, but that will cause a few problems.
New civs that do not have a presence over all of this history (most). People not knowing the leader (no big deal).
Need for more pictures/art and data. Cost space and money.

	31-07-2003 11:11									#36
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What people seem to forget is that the leaders don't necessarily reflect people who did "good" as we can find some fault in almost all of them, but because they were influential to their nations. Was Mao good or bad? The question is moot since no one can deny his influence on modern China, same with Stalin being used in Civ1.

Did you all know Hitler and Stalin both won Men of The Year awards at Time? Why? Not because they were peace loving, kind individuals but because they did things, good or bad, which shaped history. That is the criteria upon which leaders for civ should be chosen, simple as that, like it or not.

	31-07-2003 11:52									#37
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Time Men of the Year were selected for being a big influence on the news and events of the year, not for shaping history. I have no problem with Hitler and Stalin being selected because they were more newsworthy the year they were selected.

I agree that civ leaders should be chosen for having the most profound influence in shaping their civ's history.

What you said is apples and oranges. Men of the Year and Civ leaders do not equate.

	31-07-2003 13:47									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Time Men of the Year were selected for being a big influence on the news and events of the year, not for shaping history.

While they're not exactly the same thing, of course, there's an awful lot of cross-over between "being very newsworthy" and "shaping history", particularly when it refers to leaders of major world powers.

In the case of Stalin and Mao the reason they were newsworthy is because what they were doing was, for better or worse, changing the face of the world.

	31-07-2003 14:23									#39
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Obviously Men of the Year and Civ leaders do not equate since there hasn't been a Man of the Year edition since 4000 BC

It was simply an example to show how people who might be considered "evil" have done a lot to this world, for good or bad, and moreso, have done a lot to their countries.

	31-07-2003 15:01									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Obviously Men of the Year and Civ leaders do not equate since there hasn't been a Man of the Year edition since 4000 BC It was simply an example to show how people who might be considered "evil" have done a lot to this world, for good or bad, and moreso, have done a lot to their countries.

Apples and oranges again; however you say it it still does not necessarily make such individuals Civ leader worthy.

I nominate Og the Hunter for 4000BC Man of the Year.

	01-08-2003 04:40									#41
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I definately agree that Rome should be Ind/Mil. It seems kind of strange that they were not from the beginning. After all, they were among the most prolific builders and by far the most militaristic of the late ancient cultures.

I think they have been made Militaristic/Commercial because Commercial allows to conquer a huge empire while making it profitable. However, I agree they should be Mil / Ind, now that hopefully China will stop being so

	01-08-2003 19:07									#42
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quote: I nominate Og the Hunter for 4000BC Man of the Year

HERETIC! BOW BEFORE GROG!

-Arrian

	01-08-2003 20:17									#43
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Well if Grog has his tank, I guess I had better.

	01-08-2003 20:50									#44
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they should have a trait "Crazy about wall building"

<south park> I'll get you mongolians!!!!</south park>