04-08-2003 22:48									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber that Lego let themselves be bullied into a NAP in the first place.

It's amazing the pressure one can place on another team as they watch you microwave their lego blocks into puddles of useless plastic one by one........

	05-08-2003 00:44									#242
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Is there any way to put a whole thread on your ignore list?

I can't help myself and every time I look in here I see something else that I find annoying/angering. Then I'll say something stupid again and piss everyone off....

Damn it, I can't lock the thread either...

	05-08-2003 01:07									#243
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I can't help myself and every time I look in here I see something else that I find annoying/angering. Then I'll say something stupid again and piss everyone off....

I think thats what fuels most of the larger threads in this forum.

	05-08-2003 04:52									#244
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Wow.. so many posts since my last.

1. @ Nathan

quote: Given the absence of immediate danger to your troops and the fact that cooperating with your plans would have placed our own troops in greater danger, our actions have ample explanation independent of accusations of hostile intent.

I doubt anyone disbelieves that GS think that they acted in their best interests. Hell..even I think it. But “acting in your own interests” has nothing to do if GS broke the NAP or not. I am quite happy to agree to disagree on which team broke the NAP so that this thread can die.


1. @ notyoueither

quote: GoW has failed to keep a single agreement with GS. Every single one has been broken. GoW entered into one last agreement with GS with the intent to twist the agreement to their advantage. We would be welcome to send troops to kill RP and then we could bugger off. GoW attempted to twist an NAP into things which it is not, such as an RoP. GoW is seriously shocked when the patience in GS for GoW and their 'tricks' has been exhausted and we tell them where to get off when they make demands in a... less than diplomatic tone. I still get a laugh when GoW tries to point fingers in this. What the hell do they know about honoring agreements when they've never met one they wouldn't break?

Same thing as Nathan. Why does GS want to cloud the issue. I don’t mind GS stating the justification for breaking the NAP was a little bit of pay back. But if you do, don’t keep repeating that the NAP was not broken by GS.
Was it payback/revenge/acting in your best interest or that GS did not act hostile towards GoW ?

My opinion, is that GS broke the NAP because GS felt it was in their best interest to do it.

3. @ Nathan & Shiber

quote: I still get a laugh when anyone tries to say a MPP is a NAP

Sorry gentlemen .. I was laughing very hard at this point. I was referring to the RP MPP and should of wrote.
“I still get a laugh when anyone tries to say that our RP MPP was a NAP”
I find it amusing that GS need to comment on it when they have not seen any of the negotiations & offers that surrounded the deal.


4. @ WhiteBandit




5. @ Unorthodox.

Unortho…I am sure that it was just an oversight that you forgot to preface your response with that it was your personal opinion. I for one (who also does not speak solely for the GoW) still firmly believes the GoW did not break the NAP. GS (while acting in their best interests) broke it by allying with our enemy and taking actions to hamper our military forces.

6. @ ….Oh dear… I cant remember….maybe Shiber ??? or just GS in general ??

{edit} - Quite rightly removed


7. @ who else haven’t I offended yet ??

	05-08-2003 05:05									#245
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OK, back to trash-talk and war rants.

I WILL KILL YOU ALL UNTIL YOU DIE !! :fire:

	05-08-2003 05:08									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Why does GS want to cloud the issue. I don’t mind GS stating the justification for breaking the NAP was a little bit of pay back. But if you do, don’t keep repeating that the NAP was not broken by GS. Was it payback/revenge/acting in your best interest or that GS did not act hostile towards GoW ?

No... I don't think no Stormian will see what we did as payback, certainly not as no Stormian has commented that what we did was even remotely breaking a deal. But what we want to say is that given GoW's track record, maybe others should try to take GoW's promises and public postings with a grain of salt. The NAP was the 6th or 7th deal breaker, and only the first one where GoW finds even a remote possibility to put the blame in our shoes.

One other thing could also be deduced from this: maybe GS is too naive, too friendly, and too forgiving. Maybe we should open up a book of grudges too

DeepO

	05-08-2003 05:31									#247
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I think the fact that GoW is surprised that we took them at their word as being mercenaries is very surprising.

You can call acquiring cities and not granting you an ROP hostile til the cows come home. We will have to agree to disagree about that.

However, no, it wasn't payback for past deeds by GoW. It was a decision that our behaviour should be governed by the context of who we were dealing with, and what the situation was. So yes, our actions were determined by the context, but no our actions were not 'payback'.

	05-08-2003 05:31									#248
	Remove this text

quote: then to cowardly hide behind the “cant post any private chat logs” rule so that he cant reply.

HE,

I brought up the private message/chat part. I wasn't just targetting GF, but GS members as well, as was specifically noted with the message. I also noted "Even summary posts shouldn't be made IMO." I think it's just plain wrong, and I am sure it is against forum rules to post private messages publicly, and thought the same logic might apply to private chats. I didn't comment on the subject matter at all, as I don't think it even belongs in the public forums.

If you think I acted cowardly for what I post, address your statement to me. Don't try to hide behind your inability to properly target your inflamitory statements.

	05-08-2003 05:45									#249
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Oh Boy ... Yet another GS member who has put me on their sh!t list



Aeson .. You are correct ... I will edit my post to remove it.

	05-08-2003 05:51									#250
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I'm sorry, but what is WRONG with you people???!!!

WhiteBandit's post had me ROTFFLMFAF!!!!



(and should put an end to this back and forth sniping... let this thread die)

	05-08-2003 05:56									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I WILL KILL YOU ALL UNTIL YOU DIE !!

Killing someone would pretty much would mean that they die, wouldn't it?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It was a decision that our behaviour should be governed by the context of who we were dealing with

Man do I feel sorry for whatever it is your getting ready to do to Roleplay......

	05-08-2003 06:17									#252
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Man do I feel sorry for whatever it is your getting ready to do to Roleplay......

Why? Contrary to reputations, they've never broken a deal with us, and they've never behaved in any way that would indicate that we should not treat them as we ourselves would want to be treated.

It's almost as if some people are shocked that we would not allow our natures to be taken advantage of, again. What a laugh.

	05-08-2003 06:36									#253
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm sorry, but what is WRONG with you people???!!! WhiteBandit's post had me ROTFFLMFAF!!!! (and should put an end to this back and forth sniping... let this thread die)

I agree. What the hell? Hot Enamel and you are the only ones who seemed to notice my post! People are taking this crap too seriously. :P

Anyway, thanks a lot

	05-08-2003 08:13									#254
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Good grief - this is still going?

Ok boys - I've got a ruler here - whip 'em out!

	05-08-2003 10:04									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson HE, I brought up the private message/chat part. I wasn't just targetting GF, but GS members as well, as was specifically noted with the message. I also noted "Even summary posts shouldn't be made IMO." I think it's just plain wrong, and I am sure it is against forum rules to post private messages publicly, and thought the same logic might apply to private chats. I didn't comment on the subject matter at all, as I don't think it even belongs in the public forums.

Aeson, back in the early days of the game set-up, before you decided to join, it was decided that private messages sent in an ambassadorial capacity in connection with this game would carry inplicit permission to share them in ways not normally allowed by Apolyton rules. So it seems to me that the sharing of private communications in this game should be viewed in more the way it would among real-world nations rather than under Apolyton's normal rules governing PMs.

Of course if a PM contains something truly personal, as opposed to part of the game, that would be another matter.

	05-08-2003 11:21									#256
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I was aware of that. I just thought the agreements were to be able to post the conversations 'publicly' in the team forums.

	05-08-2003 13:33									#257
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I don't like the fact that this thread is continuing so I'm going to post here saying that I'm surprised this thread is still going. By bumping it to the top of the forum in this way I hope to banish it forever. For some reason I will do this several times and yet still express surprise that the thread hasn't died yet.

	05-08-2003 16:27									#258
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit What the hell? Hot Enamel and you are the only ones who seemed to notice my post!

What? You posted somewhere? Was it this thread?

	05-08-2003 16:41									#259
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I saw and read it and I think it was funny. But I didn't say anything because I think that your post speaks for itself

Last edited by Shiber on 05-08-2003 at 17:11

	06-08-2003 01:36									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Darekill The point is, as long as it is for GoW better to fight with us then against us we feel fine.

Darekill,

RP has made that mistake before

	06-08-2003 01:47									#261
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I don't think Roleplay ever was in the position where it was in GoW's best interests to side with her.

	06-08-2003 01:52									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber However, when RP made their offer we accepted and put ourselves in a condition that we'd have never believed that we'd end up in a few months ago. We got over our emotions when our logic told us that if we leave GoW and ND alone, we're almost forgoing any chances of winning this game at all. Still, noone was seriously considering lending RP a hand (or at least noone voiced such an opinion on GS's forum, IIRC) until they made us an offer, which happened about two days after the joint GS-GoW-ND chat.

It was also when I was given responsibility for our diplomacy with GS after being gone for quite a number of months. I returned to find in the few chats I sat in on that it seemed a number of teams displayed an odd hostility toward our team that obviously had grown quite a bit over the past several months and which I STILL don't fully understand how it must have done so.

I'm glad that in the case of GS and RP, level heads finally prevailed.

That said, I have a funny feeling based upon the discussions that took place in the RP internal forum, the negotiations I had with GS, and the discussions I've seen out here, that the very polarized opinions of the offer(s) I sent over to GS and we negotiated will undergo a lot of debate for some time to come. So I'm certainly not free from some level of taint for that

As for why people hated RP so much, I'm honestly still confused about the cause of that, but that's almost certainly because I've only heard the whole story of the last several months from other RP people (though a little from Beta and a little from NYE, which offers some clues).

So it will be good to compare notes after the game is over. I'm honestly quite interested about the thoughts of other teams regarding a whole host of various issues, relations with RP only being one of them.

	06-08-2003 02:01									#263
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Seriously, Arnie, most of the people who have mentioned anti-Roleplay feelings to me always insinuate that they stem from being treated unfairly by RP. Justified or not that seems to be a common theme.

An item that comes to mind is the whole we claim the southern half of the continent and no one is allowed to explore there.

	06-08-2003 02:08									#264
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And here I thought it was because all the DIA members joined RP while all the Hawks joined GoW...

and no, I am never going to let the whole DIA thing drop

	06-08-2003 03:19									#265
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Seriously, Arnie, most of the people who have mentioned anti-Roleplay feelings to me always insinuate that they stem from being treated unfairly by RP. Justified or not that seems to be a common theme. An item that comes to mind is the whole we claim the southern half of the continent and no one is allowed to explore there.

Now THAT I knew about... that's the reason GoW has disliked RP and the reason ND has disliked RP (though ND more specifically for the LAND).

As for GoW and the exploration thing, I was still around when you and Togas had your exceptionally unproductive shouting match via e-mail That spurred Ninot to start talking about deposing Togas and whatnot, Panzer to accuse Togas and RP of being Hitler, much of RP getting royally pissed off at that and the subsequent trial of Ninot for treason while RP-GoW relations continued to plumet

I've been harping about that being the central reason for the continued animosity between GoW and RP for months on end now, both before and after my absense. So I don't consider ND or GoW to be any mystery.

What's a mystery to me is GS and Lego, as Vox makes a bit more sense from what little I've heard about the Vox war.

	06-08-2003 05:19									#266
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Agreed, but the insinuations about unfair dealings have come from Lego and GS members. There are comments in our chat logs between GoW and GS where they frequently comment about unfair Roleplay offers. In fact part of one from a GS member was posted in this forum a few days ago until Aeson requested I remove it.

	06-08-2003 05:51									#267
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO One other thing could also be deduced from this: maybe GS is too naive, too friendly, and too forgiving. Maybe we should open up a book of grudges too DeepO

* Master Zen has a feeling he will get an entire chapter dedicated to himself!

	06-08-2003 08:17									#268
	Put an end to popups!

* Theseus thinks MZ gets a bye for valorious service to the Civ3 nation.

	06-08-2003 08:39									#269
	Put an end to popups!

I didn't request you remove it GF. I made a statement about my understanding of forum rules and gave my own opinion on the subject in that regard. Any 'request' made by an argument of that type is purely one of reason. An implied "If you agree with the argument, then act in accordance with it." if you will. That request is made by logic, not myself.

	06-08-2003 17:46									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I didn't request you remove it GF. I made a statement about my understanding of forum rules and gave my own opinion on the subject in that regard. Any 'request' made by an argument of that type is purely one of reason. An implied "If you agree with the argument, then act in accordance with it." if you will. That request is made by logic, not myself.

Then you didn't want me to remove it? I felt it was a request, although perhaps an implied one. I had to choose between referring to it as a 'request' or a 'demand' and certainly did view as an adamant demand so considered a request and one that I agreed with and so I edited it from the post.

Now people are taking offense that I call their posts a "request" sheesh, I can't do anything around here without someone getting offended...........