05-09-2003 22:07									#241
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Hey Curt, would you mind if I used some units of yours from Vendetta?

	05-09-2003 22:31									#242
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling That someone would be me of course! In this scenario, the USA had a revolution, hence the UFA name. All the military personnel in the possesions of the USA, either went back to the US to claim a place in the new order, or they went like the general in Apocalypse Now and declared independance from the ex-USA. Honolulu is one such city. And about Oslo being bigger than Stockholm? It is a top holiday resort for the Germans! Honest!

That explains everything! Thanks (btw im in the playtest)

	05-09-2003 22:32									#243
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Jimmy and I just chatted - and our ideas include some really drastic ideas.

The story would have to be changed a little and:
We would need completely new German city graphics.

All fancy and pompously.

The most little graphic should (thats really important) be like a little Garten Eden - you know a village which is more than beautiful like a western oasis with lots of avenues and trees and stuff.

Temples and etc should be white marmoured.


Ok, I guess that would be really much work, wouldnt it?
But this would give the scen really a lot of flair.
The Changes: We would raise all former Russian big cities - as Hitler wished and recolonise it with little fancy villages.
In the west citys get perhaps a little smaller as people went to the east colonizing.
Infrastructure shall be highly improved.

Jim and I will present a map but you will have to wait a week cause tomorrow I will fly to Ibiza!

Holidays!

Perhaps I can finish work today but I donīt think there is a big chance.

	05-09-2003 22:42									#244
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Curt, there's a problem with the city improvements unique for each civilization. Neither the Australians State Brewery or the UFA's Federal Garrison make citizens happy; neither civ has the appropriate technology (e.g. monotheism) for these improvements to work.

I was playing again as the Red Empire; a few questions with regard to these guys:

1) how can they get to build nukes?
2) there's a wonder called Red Central HQ in the pedia, that can't be built. Was this an oversight, or is it just a leftover wonder that you didn't want in the scenario?

	05-09-2003 22:50									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Art of War Hey Curt, would you mind if I used some units of yours from Vendetta?

Please, be my guest!

As long as you credit me and anyone else involved in making them!

	05-09-2003 22:57									#246
	ideas Remove this text

This must be one of the most inspiring scens ever, a regular brainstorm of ideas for everybody...
Some rather unsophisticated looking nubian fighters I got inspired into drawing, I play as the Africans now, cool . I was thinking, what about a pan-african crusade event to liberate Aksum and Nubia (Addis Abeba & Khartum)?
What about making the African fighter a STOLV, like the Harrier (helicopter stats, fighter flag on, small range)?
Being a tactical oriented, low tech army, a no airfields fighter would suit them great, making them even more different to play. As for the Australians, they could opt for range at all costs, having to span the pacific ocean!
Oh Curt, you've set all those minds in fire!!!

Attachment: tanelorn nubian fighters.gif
This has been downloaded 86 time(s).

	05-09-2003 23:00									#247
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by our_man Curt, there's a problem with the city improvements unique for each civilization. Neither the Australians State Brewery or the UFA's Federal Garrison make citizens happy; neither civ has the appropriate technology (e.g. monotheism) for these improvements to work.

Yep, I know, dude.

I was really just making them into flavour improvents, both civs do not suffer from chronic civilian mood problems...

quote: Originally posted by our_man I was playing again as the Red Empire; a few questions with regard to these guys: 1) how can they get to build nukes? 2) there's a wonder called Red Central HQ in the pedia, that can't be built. Was this an oversight, or is it just a leftover wonder that you didn't want in the scenario?

1)Due to a shortage of events room, I couldn't make the Red Empire be awarded the nukes, so I will give them the tech chain that leads to them 'Missile Level I'...

2)Aha! That is fixed now, it should be buildable to the Reds from the start.

Thanks for spotting that one!

A new zip is nigh, I feel!

	05-09-2003 23:02									#248
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quote: Originally posted by tanelorn This must be one of the most inspiring scens ever, a regular brainstorm of ideas for everybody... Some rather unsophisticated looking nubian fighters I got inspired into drawing, I play as the Africans now, cool . I was thinking, what about a pan-african crusade event to liberate Aksum and Nubia (Addis Abeba & Khartum)? What about making the African fighter a STOLV, like the Harrier (helicopter stats, fighter flag on, small range)? Being a tactical oriented, low tech army, a no airfields fighter would suit them great, making them even more different to play. As for the Australians, they could opt for range at all costs, having to span the pacific ocean! Oh Curt, you've set all those minds in fire!!!

Thanks, my friend!

I like that African fighter Idea, I'll get right on it!

Can I use your first plane design?

	05-09-2003 23:32									#249
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Guys, a new zip is up, with various fixes as discussed in the last few posts!

Minor tweaks, and nothing event based, so you can overwrite your files right now!

	05-09-2003 23:34									#250
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Tanelorn has given me an idea (again!), I think the African campaign is my favourite!

at some point, I might be tempted to make a quick scenario based on this campaign alone!

	05-09-2003 23:36									#251
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What do you think of the Reichīs changes we proposed?

	06-09-2003 00:00									#252
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Mmm... iīm going to make two comments...

1) Do you really like the gigamap you are using curt? You know, there are better and bigger gigamaps around. like the one used in imp1870 or in 2194 days gigamap version

2) Mmm... this is extremely personal, but i really hate to follow plots-guidelines in a "what if" scenario like the one we are playing here. I donīt like those events that allow me / donīt allow me to negotiate, sign peace, form alliances with whoever i want and whenever i want. I canīt do it
I strongly believe that these "what if" scenarios should give us more freedom to choose our own path.

Again, itīs just my point of view

	06-09-2003 00:12									#253
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Its funny: I also wanted to propose you taking another map at this moment- cause this one as a little to small. I worked on the map pap used for 2194 GIGA. And I think France looks better now.
But about the techs that you have to research having war or peace with someone - I think they are great. Cause if I play normal Civ2 (I usually dont play no non-scenarios anymore) the AI always declares war on me - every single civ. And that makes me angry cause its not realistic. So I think Curt found a nice solution.

	06-09-2003 00:18									#254
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quote: But about the techs that you have to research having war or peace with someone - I think they are great. Cause if I play normal Civ2 (I usually dont play no non-scenarios anymore) the AI always declares war on me - every single civ. And that makes me angry cause its not realistic. So I think Curt found a nice solution.

Of course, i donīt agree with you. I hate this characteristic... we have different point of views.
Anyway, i can take it in a singleplayer game... but curt... if you are going to release a multiplayer version i strongly suggest you to delete those events.

	06-09-2003 00:28									#255
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quote: Originally posted by academia Of course, i donīt agree with you. I hate this characteristic... we have different point of views. Anyway, i can take it in a singleplayer game... but curt... if you are going to release a multiplayer version i strongly suggest you to delete those events.

YES of corse! If you play MP these events do have to be deleted.

What do you mean with: "I hate this characteristic"???

	06-09-2003 00:31									#256
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quote: Originally posted by academia but curt... if you are going to release a multiplayer version i strongly suggest you to delete those events.

Thats not hard to do. I agree though that a pbem version of this scenario would need some rebalancing for the sake of gameplay.

	06-09-2003 01:16									#257
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quote: What do you mean with: "I hate this characteristic"???

That i donīt like the "have to research techs in order to wage war on someone" option

quote: Thats not hard to do. I agree though that a pbem version of this scenario would need some rebalancing for the sake of gameplay.

Yep. My point is that I love playing PBEM games!! and believe me, i think this one could become one of the best scenarios for PBEM games ever

	06-09-2003 01:34									#258
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Ok, here is a first suggestion. I just worked on it on my own (Jim didnt see it yet).
I will post the sav.

Following things have to be explained:
Curt, you did one logical fault. You imported citys which were strategically important in WW2 to the 1980, where they are nothing more than little villages whitout natural enemy. For Example:
-Brest
-Tobruk
Also:
-Bergen and the other little citys in Norway.

I also deleted Stettin and Leipzig (as they are not the biggest citys and the German Superior Production with little landmass problem from normal ww2 scenarios does not exist in this case).

Founded some new colonies... Hope you like the names.


PS: I will continue working on infrastructure and stuff...

Attachment: eternal reich.sav
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	06-09-2003 01:38									#259
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quote: Originally posted by academia My point is that I love playing PBEM games!! and believe me, i think this one could become one of the best scenarios for PBEM games ever

Just a general question:
Would you guys be interested in a global WW2 Demogame half German half English languaged?
My folks from the Civ2 Webringforum and I often play Demogames but we are not that much people as here. So it would be interesting to have a mixed Demogame.
Beeing more than 2 members per nation would be nice...

	06-09-2003 02:05									#260
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what scenario?

	06-09-2003 02:26									#261
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Hmmm... Thats the question. I would really like to take the scenario Curt, Jim and me are working on - but I fear this will take its time. So this was just a general question to get some feedback for the idea.

The Demogame itself could perhaps start in the winter.

	06-09-2003 02:44									#262
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Cifer Almasy, you do know that Stockholm is to be south of Oslo right?

	06-09-2003 04:27									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Cifer Almasy What do you think of the Reichīs changes we proposed?

I am all for removing those Reich cities in the urals and creating other cities elsewhere.

This will give more of a battle ground for the Red Empire to cross.

About these glorious saxon city styles, I am only for making the biggest city icon the grand one.
A continent of massive marble cites is not fitting in a grim post-war German hegemony.
When the nukes are raining out of the sky, it won't matter anyway!

	06-09-2003 04:37									#264
	Put an end to popups!

@Cifer:

Hey, any chance of you making those same changes again to this here save file?

Just delete any units that block your path!

The save file...

	06-09-2003 04:46									#265
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quote: Originally posted by academia Mmm... iīm going to make two comments... 1) Do you really like the gigamap you are using curt? You know, there are better and bigger gigamaps around. like the one used in imp1870 or in 2194 days gigamap version

Young jedi, know this, you must...

Giant ambitions lead to Giga maps,
Giga maps lead to Mass AI unit building,
Mass AI unit building leads to 'too many units'
'too many units' leads to Curt crying.

Giga maps, lead you to the dark side, they will.

quote: Originally posted by academia 2) Mmm... this is extremely personal, but i really hate to follow plots-guidelines in a "what if" scenario like the one we are playing here. I donīt like those events that allow me / donīt allow me to negotiate, sign peace, form alliances with whoever i want and whenever i want. I canīt do it I strongly believe that these "what if" scenarios should give us more freedom to choose our own path. Again, itīs just my point of view

Funny, the system I picked was designed to give a lot of choices...

The trouble is this:
If I allow full diplo options, the AI will all begin swapping techs and you will see the Reich fly Red Empire planes, etc....Not good!

I think it would be nice to allow full communication between all civs, etc.
But you know that they always demand techs and silly things,
and to make the civ fully unflagged would lead to crazed civ suprise attacks, etc.

Also to avoid tech swapping/demands I would have to kill most of the civ Unique Units and identity...

That I cannot do at this stage.

	06-09-2003 05:41									#266
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quote: Young jedi, know this, you must... Giga maps, lead you to the dark side, they will.

Well, for your info iīm not a newbie in the scenario creation world...
I made two scenarios in a gigamap (iron curtain and latinamerican crisis) and believe me, I never received the "too many units" window.
Anyway, i know that you may come across this problem in singleplayer, but in all my pbem tests (seven!!!) IīVE NEVER SEEN THE TOO MANY UNITS PROBLEM!!!!!

So, if thatīs the only reason for not using bigger gigamaps, i suggest you to make up your mind.
Really, i made tests... and it works fine in multiplayer games

quote: If I allow full diplo options, the AI will all begin swapping techs and you will see the Reich fly Red Empire planes, etc....Not good!

Thatīs not true.
It depends on the way you design the tech tree
Iīve never seen the soviets building phantoms in my iron curtain games, or the non-alligned nations (controlled by the AI) with mig-21s
There are two "methods" to design tech trees
If I correctly recall, Andrew Livings Crisis scenario is a good example of the method iīm using. Bah... you can even look my iron curtain scenario.

quote: But you know that they always demand techs and silly things,

I know. itīs a question of singleplayer vs. multiplayer mode

	06-09-2003 05:52									#267
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let me give you an example.

VENDETTA SCENARIO

Alliance Infantry
Pre: Pacific Alliance
Obsolence: Nil

Sturmwehr
Pre: Nazi Military
Obsolence: Nil

Federal Infantry
Pre: United Federation
Obsolence: Nil


Result: 3 different techs required for 3 different units
Well, if you take a look at each civ in the game (bah, the main three: eternal reich-UFA-Red Empire) youīll notice that they have different and unique tech trees for each one.
So, in the case of tanks, youīll have to use 3 tech slots. the same happens with fighters, bombers, etc.
And all these techs share the same characteristic:

Prerequisite: "some tech"

In other words, in case of diplomatic talks ANYONE CAN ASK FOR / OBTAIN THOSE TECHS.
So, as you said before: "the AI will all begin swapping techs and you will see the Reich fly Red Empire planes, etc...."

	06-09-2003 06:01									#268
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And now, the other method:

IRON CURTAIN SCENARIO

US Army
Pre: Conscription
Obsolence: Not USA

Red Army
Pre: Conscription
Obsolence: Not Russian

NATO Army
Pre: Conscription
Obsolence: Not NATO

Result: 1 single tech (conscription) for 3 different units.
You use one tech tree; the same tech (conscription, mobile warfare I, etc.) may allow different civs to build their unique units and identity. got the idea?

Of course, i assume you notice those "obsolence" techs: Not USA, Not Russian, Not NATO.
Well, that prevents the undesired effect of soviets with phantoms or europeans with migs.
see this example:

Iīm USA. i have mobile warfare I that lets me build M60 tanks.
I gave the tech to the non-alligned nations. will they be able to produce M60 tanks? NO. why not? because they have the "Non USA" tech
And what if i give the mob. warfare I tech to the soviets? will they produce M60 tanks? NO. because they have the "Non USA" tech

I hope i made myself clear

	06-09-2003 12:41									#269
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@Academia:

My yoda impersonation was a bit of humour, not an attempt to ridicule you, my good chap!

I have utmost respect for my fellow civ players/creators.

Anyways:
About giga maps, I have made up my mind, about 3 scenarios ago!
At this stage, I am not enthusiastic about recreating a whole map from scratch, especially one of those giant, problem-making gigas.

I like the map I have for Vendetta, it is big enough for the purpose...

About the tech tree issue, you make a good case.
I am aware of this method of tech tree design, it is used in 2194 days and various other sceanrios...

It has got me thinking as to if I should implement this style of tech tree, although it would mean a major overhaul...

and with all the differing civs and factions in the scenario,
making sure none of them can build each other's units might actually just involve as much complex tech jiggery as anything else.

I'll do a few tests, but I cannot promise anything.

Vendetta was made primarily for single player, but multiplay is a case of ditching the war events and putting everyone on peace treaties...

Thanks for your suggestions, Acedemia, I will think them over...

	06-09-2003 12:49									#270
	Increase Your PM Length

I am going to make up a test thingie for academia's tech tree suggestions, I will be back with the results...