01-08-2003 23:05									#61
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Btw, next turn we'll have to switch Tempest from a university to the GW (unless there's a way to switch in the prebuild phase of turn 133). Can GoW switch their wonder prebuild to GW (losing ~150 shields in the process, probably; at least 100 shields anyway, since they had to switch the prebuild from the Great Library to the Sistine) and complete the damn thing before we do?

	01-08-2003 23:09									#62
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Something I forgot to calculate earlier: flipping chance in Wittlich city.

2 foreign tiles, no foreign pop, more city culture for us, ~equal culture for GoW and us gives 2 troops to totally negate flipping chances.
Without troops, it is at most a 0.2% chance of flipping if GoW's capital is twice as near as ours (it's farther). Average flipping in 250 turns.

DeepO

	01-08-2003 23:11									#63
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Shiber, the only way they can do that is by discovering a tech, and going into F1 at the right moment. Which doesn't seem likely.

BTW, flipping chances for PI are the same as for Wittlich

DeepO

	01-08-2003 23:15									#64
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I like DeepO's suggestion re: the message to RP.

	01-08-2003 23:35									#65
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Oh my god
I just checked out the latest screenshots. You folks are doing pretty well for yourselves!

The power graph looks more like and SP game than what I would imagine that of a good MP game would look like.

The "image problem" seems to have improved; I'm amazed everyone isn't trying to cut us down to size. Looks like the only long term strategic threat at this point is getting gang beaten.

I realize there are some tough turns being dealt with right now, but when I left for vacation we were considering how to mount a counter offensive against VOX. You've gone a long way from there.

For the record I was on vacation (backpacking Europe) for 3 weeks, and spent the proceeding 3 weeks with Pneumonia. You Europeans certainly pack some nasty diseases.

	02-08-2003 02:52									#66
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Regarding the Great Wall, I very definitely don't want GoW getting any ideas of switching to it themselves!

I must say that I am irritated that you would choose this with little or no discussion. (Probably this is just my personal bias because it was my idea) I saw two posts subsequent to mine that were either in favor of the idea or in favor of more discussion on the matter, I saw none dissenting. I understand that it was late in the turn and that it had to be closed and sent soon, but to willy nilly discard ideas that you dislike is IMHO, wrong. I understand that none of the big 4 commented on the matter, for or against, which probably assisted in your decision. I know I'm not a strat forum guy, I know that I am weak on the city/worker management (tend to want to play fast emperor games) but I have (some) good ideas. But such ideas are usually just dismissed with a wave of the hand. I don't care if my ideas are dismissed after some at least token consideration, because we do try to reach decisions as a group, but when someone else comments that we should discuss what I say, and then you dismiss it and close the turn, I get rankled. Maybe I'm overaggerating all of this, but that's just how I feel, and have felt for some time.

Thanks

	02-08-2003 02:54									#67
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sleepy, I am not sure what you mean... fill me in please?

	02-08-2003 03:00									#68
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I closed the turn when I did because I had to get to work and would not get home in time to meet the 24-hour deadline. As it is, finishing the turn delayed my getting to work more than I would have liked. I'm sorry there wasn't time to discuss your idea further, but I provided as much time as I felt like I could for further input regarding outstanding issues.

	02-08-2003 03:14									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus sleepy, I am not sure what you mean... fill me in please?

I posted an idea earlier in the thread, there were a couple of positive posts regarding the idea, Nathan decided he didn't like the idea and sent the turn a few minutes later.

My idea was to change the build to the Great Wall right now, in order to try to force GoW's hand on toledo, instead of forking with New Madrid. The reasoning being that they might attack if our defense was to be considerably strenghtened the next turn.

And yes, there is the drawback that GoW could switch their build to the GW now and we would lose out on it. However, would they switch, in case we were bluffing? I doubt it, they would lose all hopes for Leo's. And, frankly I'm not worried about the wall in their hands. Their defenses are thin at their homeland, so it wouldn't be that much of an advantage for them. And once this rider stack is dealt with, we won't have much use for it either.

	02-08-2003 03:35									#70
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I closed the turn when I did because I had to get to work and would not get home in time to meet the 24-hour deadline. As it is, finishing the turn delayed my getting to work more than I would have liked. I'm sorry there wasn't time to discuss your idea further, but I provided as much time as I felt like I could for further input regarding outstanding issues.

Sorry you were late to work, certainly this game should not interfere (too much) with real life commitments.

Nonetheless, I stand by what I said and my feelings on the matter and that game. I want to be a part of something where I have a voice. I don't want to be a part of something where my vote is essentially 1/2 of someone else's.

	02-08-2003 03:39									#71
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sleepy, if it makes you feel any better (I'm being serious), I see your voice, views, and ideas taken very seriously.

ME, on the other hand... (Not being serious. I think the team dynamic is generally OK, although I know sometimes people get rubbed the wrong way, myself included).

	02-08-2003 04:10									#72
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Like Theseus, I too feel like sleepy's opinions and ideas are taken with due seriousness...

The important lesson is that things should be discussed some time in advance- since our instincts tell us not to switch to the wonder until we have to, its hard to expect even a one time change in policy, even if its a good idea, without it being discussed a little bit more.

And now, to my suggestion- striking GoW's border towns (I think it deserves its own thread, don't you).

	02-08-2003 04:12									#73
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I think Nathan did well.
Sleepy's idea was, IMHO, fantastic, in the way that it could help us play with GoW's mind. It was also dangerous, and required more time to discuss, which is why I'm saying that Nathan did well when he neglected it.
And for the record, I don't think that the GW would become nearly useless after we've stopped GoW's stack. Think, for example, how we are going to attack ND and GoW at their own turf. Wouldn't it be insanely great to land eight or so galleons filled with knights, pikes, medinfs, cats and a settler and set up a GW-powered beachhead? And we may come across many many uses for the GW until it expires - to take the risk with Sleepy's marvelous but dangerous idea now could mean to render half a dozen other future ideas unworkable.

I congratulate Sleepy on a creative and innovative idea, but it's a shame that it was only brought up now (not that I'm blaming Sleepy for this, of course).

	02-08-2003 04:27									#74
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FYI: I informed Togas about New Madrid via IRC (after making sure that he really is Togas, of course). He fully understands, and says that it can stay under our control for as long as we need it.

	02-08-2003 04:41									#75
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Sorry you were late to work, certainly this game should not interfere (too much) with real life commitments. Nonetheless, I stand by what I said and my feelings on the matter and that game. I want to be a part of something where I have a voice. I don't want to be a part of something where my vote is essentially 1/2 of someone else's.

It wasn't anything personal. Here's a timeline of how it went (all times U.S. Central Time, my time zone):

5:15 a.m. Asleep suggests the idea.
5:53 a.m. Shiber indicates support.
6:25 a.m. DeepO expresses mixed feelings, noting the possibility that GoW could change their build.
6:37 a.m. Shiber writes, "You make a good point regarding the GW. This could seriously blow in our faces."
11:03 a.m. I make my first post of the day, including my opposition among other things.
12:44 p.m. I post that I've just finished the turn.

From 6:25 when DeepO noted the possibility that GoW could change their build to sometime after 12:30 when I finished playing the turn, no one spoke out in clear, unambiguous support for the idea of going ahead and changing the build to try to influence GoW's behavior. Asleep, I didn't even know whether you would still be in favor of it yourself with DeepO's concerns taken into consideration. Under the circumstances, and in the absence of time for further discussion, I stuck with what the team had been planning.

	02-08-2003 04:54									#76
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Ok, I will admit that I was overreacting (a combination of lack of sleep and high stress from rl) And I will admit that there wasn't enough discussion on it, that I thought about it too late in the game to get much discussion. I guess this will learn me not to go to sleep or away for a few hours

	02-08-2003 05:33									#77
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Been there and done that.