09-08-2003 22:38									#31
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Under standard settings, dumb luck and opening position have far more to do with how a faction will fare than any innate bonuses, and even so, ANY game with the AI is winnable, provided you're suitably aggressive.

Blind research has a huge effect on the playability of certain factions, since if you take 40-50 turns to get Centauri Ecology, you're going to seriously behind the eightball.

Even so, even the crappiest faction can win against the AI, simply because the poor AI is so dense.

	10-08-2003 00:21									#32
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Morgon can't choose planned! No pop boom except via GA until Cloning Vacts built! Wouldn't do much good without Hab Complexes anyway.

quote: Originally posted by Lazerus true with any faction in my experience, I'd definately recommend FM for morgan atleast until mid-way in the game just after his first pop boom though when you can have a quick switch around to see which will yield greater results. 1-1-1-trance units, dirt cheap and if i remember right planet rating has no effect on defense? You'll have enough cash to just probe the enemies units. As for fungus blooms just keep an eye on your clean mineral limit and push it up with a few early pops and tree farms then you'll have no problem with them as im sure i remember reading planet rating only affects the severity of eco-damage caused by the minerals that are over the clean limit. If i wasn't so reliant on my cheap 1-1-1-police units for Yang then I'd definately be running FM most of the time.

	10-08-2003 00:26									#33
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Agreed; I think I could create a faction with all the negative attibates of the 7 standard civs and still beat the AI.

quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron Even so, even the crappiest faction can win against the AI, simply because the poor AI is so dense.

	10-08-2003 04:56									#34
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quote: Morgon can't choose planned! No pop boom except via GA until Cloning Vacts built! Wouldn't do much good without Hab Complexes anyway.

With the amount of energy morgan makes thats no problem at all. Nobody pop booms before IA, which morgan gets rather quicker then most, thus a few crawlers built and habs are soon finished thereafter.

quote: Agreed; I think I could create a faction with all the negative attibates of the 7 standard civs and still beat the AI.

Put Yang or Miriam on the monsoon jungle, standard or small map and turn techsteal on then try it

	11-08-2003 01:23									#35
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Actually I find the pirates to be incredibly easy to get money with because you have 1. pods 2. 5 energy squares (FM+tranducer thingy)in the first 100 years. When you get a bunch of 7 pop cities with every square having 5 energy it's easily the most energy you can get until you can make energy parks. Global market corner rush?

Yeah I would say Miran is the worst. If you can't find anyone to pick on your doomed. Well, unless you like spending an hour every turn with formers.

	11-08-2003 10:25									#36
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Domai in SP is the worst.
In my experience there is one way to play him and that is to go all out military production and expansion, with no effort to research tech. Then you get your tech by whatever non-research means that you can. Once you do that he usually wins far too easily.

The whole Domai experience ends up being quite one dimensional.

	11-08-2003 16:04									#37
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Run demo/FM/wealth

you can get high tech rates with domai then, and you'll still have +3 industry.

	11-08-2003 16:57									#38
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I still maintain that Miriam is neither the worst nor inflexible (assuming you're playing with blind research off). Miriam's +2 support does NOT have to be used to attack, and is a more important part of her profile than the extra attack (unless you do happen to start right next to a scout-rush victim -- which actually happens fairly often even on large maps, in my experience). Use the extra support for formers, use it when running Planned or Green to easily field escorts for colony pods so that you don't need a doctor or RC to immediately apply the first pop point, use it to support more transport foils for overseas colonization than you could with other factions, use it to support more explorers, use it to run democracy sooner, which, if not running Planned, means a higher baselimit... the range of possibilities is quite wide, and there's nothing "one-dimensional" about it.

As to "spending an hour every turn with formers"... if you don't like using formers, what are you doing playing SMAC? (Unless you like no-formers challenge games.)

Again, Miriam is one of my favorite borderline builder/hybrid factions, second only to Domai.

IME, since one has plenty of other worthwhile things to build in the first 15-20 turn besides just formers, Miriam's real weaknesses are:

- part of her pluses truly are wasted until she can attack (that I'll buy, though I wouldn't say it makes her inflexible -- just penalized for certain situations)

- FM/Wealth is absolutely horrible until she gets trance or preferably empath (and eliminating those nasty fungal towers outright requires the latter)

- problems with blooms arrive sooner

- a bit harder to trade her way to science, since she obtains trading material more slowly

- IA comes later.

Still an all around pretty rocking faction, as all those forests that she builds quickly while still handling many other things means really goods FOPs per square... or if she has the chance and desire, she can just let loose, kick a$$, and gain early submissives with benefits equal to the formers she passed up.

In a way, you could say she's more flexible than, say, Morgan, who can be a builder and perhaps a hybrid, but never an early-momentum faction. Miriam has all three choices.

Incidentally, my vote for hardest faction in SP would also be for the Cult--most of the penalties of the Hive and the Spartans together, with very little to show for it. In my experience you are stuck without contact with other factions -- preferably ones suitable for worm-rushing, you're kind of SOL. But from the posts above, it's clear that there are those who have no trouble with them.

USC

	11-08-2003 23:03									#39
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It also depends on the rules you are playing with. Believers get weaker when 'tech steal' is off.

	12-08-2003 03:26									#40
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Any momentum faction gets weaker when tech steal is off, but that doesn't mean that Miriam is weak. Use the early support to expand aggressively and build lots of terraformers, get Planetary Networks, then probe rape every faction on the planet to eliminate your only significant weakness. Yes, you'll lose out on getting the early SP's, but you've got the muscle to go and grab them once you've caught up in the tech race.

The +25% attack is much better than +2 morale, IMO, since no matter how good your morale SE value is, your units don't get any higher than Elite. This means that Miriam's elite units are that much tougher than everyone else's. In addition, Miriam can pop-boom easily, something Yang has much more trouble doing. Finally, the crappy planet rating is a complete non-issue once you've got trance and tree farms to take care of worms and your clean mineral count, respectively.

Miriam is equally happy starting next to sdmeone and starting alone, since if you're next to someone, you can break out the scout swarm and make their life hell, and if you're off on your own, you can concentrate on growing and building, and rely on foil probes to cover your tech problems.

	13-08-2003 20:55									#41
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I plant forests and build roads, forming is boring. It's not like you need it to beat the AI.

	14-08-2003 00:08									#42
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Well, the results are in - here's the last word on the matter... yeah, right.

I've compiled the stats from the Apolyton tournament games (too much time on my hands) and here they are - the factions from strongest to weakest, based on games awarded points out of games played.

Hive 11/18 - 61%
Drones 7/13 - 54%
Believers 2/4 - 50%
PKs 8/20 - 40%
Pirates 4/10 - 40%
Spartans 3/9 - 33%
University 7/28 - 25%
CyC 2/8 - 25%
Gaians 4/19 - 21%
Cult 1/5 - 20%
Angels 1/5 20%
Morgan 2/19 - 10%

Of course, this is all of quite questionable significance.

However, the very poor performance of Morgan and the Gaians, and the very strong showing by the Hive and Drones, is interesting.

	14-08-2003 02:36									#43
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Industry helps tremendously early on, and continues to remain helpful throughout most of the game.

	14-08-2003 03:12									#44
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I'm suprised to see the Believers so high on the list there, given how wildly unpopular they tend to be on these boards. Then again, they have so few games, their sampling is almost doubly meaningless.

	14-08-2003 03:45									#45
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The pirates are the weakest. There is no argument otherwise with any merit. They have no helpful bonusses, and several severe weaknesses, the worst of which being IMO the extra cost of sea colony pods at the beginning. This forces you to go for land thus negating any of the insignificant bonusses you had to start. Basically, all you get is a craptastic faction with -1 growth and -1 efficiency.

The Cult is pretty weak also, unless they're played from a pure worm attack standpoint. Then they can be powerful.

Of the original seven, I would say the Spartans and Believers are slightly worse than the others, but not by much. The original SMAC was very well balanced IMO.

quote: Domai in SP is the worst.

That's absolutely ludicrous. In single player he is without a doubt among the strongest. The +2 industry is just too much. You don't need to attack at all, go all out builder instead. Running FM + Wealth lets you build basically anything in one turn due to the decreased costs of buying stuff and the increased money you make. Domai is tough to the point of being imbalanced.

If you go by worst meaning lame and not weak, then the Angels take the cake. What a freakin' retarded faction. Oooo, we're a faction made of hackers oooo data and jazz ooo what a bunch o' idiots. I hate the Data Angels.

	14-08-2003 03:58									#46
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But Roze thinks your name is jazzy!

	14-08-2003 07:16									#47
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Busta Mike,

I must dissent wrt your Pirate characterization.

Going landside early and often is exactly the way to play the pirates. Agreed the early extra cost of sea pods is prohibitive and agreed that growth penalty bites (hard).

But given the fact that you have felxibility out of the shoot and that allows land transports (which will be a first build even before a garrsion unit in order to allow colony pods to move ashore). They rock early. Build the land transports move your first colony pods inland. then use the land transports to aid your land formers and you've got a very effective early expansion paradigm going only limitted by your ability to get nuts and -1 growth penalty. (Nuts of course being in plentiful supply as long as you keep near the coast lines and have a solitary kelp trawler).

The land transport evens the playing field significantly for Sven & Co.

Mid game the lack of popboom is a prob but not insurmountable as pop growth comes mainly from scads of rich coastal squares.

	14-08-2003 12:05									#48
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron I'm suprised to see the Believers so high on the list there, given how wildly unpopular they tend to be on these boards. Then again, they have so few games, their sampling is almost doubly meaningless.

Yes, the believers are a good example of why the list isn't at all meaningful for small sizes. I was in one of those games as a replacement, and there's no way the believers would have won - except that they allied with the Spartans, who were lead by Misotu. In the other win, the player in control was buster. No surprise there.

	14-08-2003 14:49									#49
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Regarding the pirates, also keep in mind that the pirates' -1 growth is really not much of a penalty on transcend level, as generally too much growth is as bad on that level as too little due to drone control problems, and the pirates tend to have plenty of nutrients anyway. In fact, I tend to find the largest problem with them KEEPING UP with their growth potential. It's a bit like support vs. industry -- in certain situations, you're better off with high support (raising your mineral production by 1 or 2, that is, by anywhere from say 33% to infinity, in the case of 0 --> 1) than high industry.

The real killer with the pirates is their inefficiency combined with the typically large distances between their bases and their capital. Other factions CAN avoid low efficiency. The pirates usually MUST avoid low efficiency, or they will soon be not only science-crippled, but also dead broke. This means that frontier/planned/?, which otherwise can be quite useful in many situations, is generally out of the question, and frontier/green/? is also out of the question as it means zero growth. Thus unless the pirates can afford to run Demo to unlock the possibilities of Planned or Green, they usually MUST run Simple or FM, making them a bit inflexible. Meanwhile their base limit remains low even when running Demo/FM.

My vote for their core strategy, therefore, is land bases but sea (not land) transports, investing heavily in fishing for artifacts, and using those to build the HGP. This makes hyper-early FM a palatable option for them.

USC

	14-08-2003 17:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Curiosity Hive 11/18 - 61% Drones 7/13 - 54% Believers 2/4 - 50% PKs 8/20 - 40% Pirates 4/10 - 40% Spartans 3/9 - 33% University 7/28 - 25% CyC 2/8 - 25% Gaians 4/19 - 21% Cult 1/5 - 20% Angels 1/5 20% Morgan 2/19 - 10%

If this is right, then how can anyone debate that Morgan isn't the worst. Of course they are the worst. They simply were not made to deal with war especially once they are -5 police, -3 planet, -3 support, and -2 moral when running their democracy, FM, and wealth. Don't forget as well that their bases are often 3 smaller in size compared to their enemies. Morgan was designed to be a builder. In the modern world, the nation of Morgan would be powerful and respected, but in the world of AC they are weak and ready to be destroyed.

	14-08-2003 21:36									#51
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The probelm isn't with the Morgan faction; it's with the Morgan players.

Playing Morgan well is unlike playing well with any of the other factions. Most players never bother to learn how to do so.

There is a very great difference in playing with an economy based on minerals vs. playing with an economy based on energy.

I have had pretty good success playing Morgan in competitive (if not always structured tournament) PBEMs against some heavyweight competion.

	15-08-2003 01:55									#52
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This just means that the Apolyton tournemy game players are full of early warmonglers.

quote: Originally posted by Curiosity Well, the results are in - here's the last word on the matter... yeah, right. I've compiled the stats from the Apolyton tournament games (too much time on my hands) and here they are - the factions from strongest to weakest, based on games awarded points out of games played. Hive 11/18 - 61% Drones 7/13 - 54% Believers 2/4 - 50% PKs 8/20 - 40% Pirates 4/10 - 40% Spartans 3/9 - 33% University 7/28 - 25% CyC 2/8 - 25% Gaians 4/19 - 21% Cult 1/5 - 20% Angels 1/5 20% Morgan 2/19 - 10% Of course, this is all of quite questionable significance. However, the very poor performance of Morgan and the Gaians, and the very strong showing by the Hive and Drones, is interesting.

	15-08-2003 02:02									#53
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That's part of the problem: That's a poor SC way to play Morgon.

Efficency is worth so much more energy that you'll get a lot more money as Morgon with Democracy + Green + Wealth than Democracy + FM + Wealth. (And without the ecology and police problems of FM.)

The -3 pop is countered by tighten base spacing.

quote: Originally posted by AMD4EVER If this is right, then how can anyone debate that Morgan isn't the worst. Of course they are the worst. They simply were not made to deal with war especially once they are -5 police, -3 planet, -3 support, and -2 moral when running their democracy, FM, and wealth. Don't forget as well that their bases are often 3 smaller in size compared to their enemies. Morgan was designed to be a builder. In the modern world, the nation of Morgan would be powerful and respected, but in the world of AC they are weak and ready to be destroyed.

	15-08-2003 02:35									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Busta Mike, I must dissent wrt your Pirate characterization. Going landside early and often is exactly the way to play the pirates. Agreed the early extra cost of sea pods is prohibitive and agreed that growth penalty bites (hard). But given the fact that you have felxibility out of the shoot and that allows land transports (which will be a first build even before a garrsion unit in order to allow colony pods to move ashore). They rock early. Build the land transports move your first colony pods inland. then use the land transports to aid your land formers and you've got a very effective early expansion paradigm going only limitted by your ability to get nuts and -1 growth penalty. (Nuts of course being in plentiful supply as long as you keep near the coast lines and have a solitary kelp trawler). The land transport evens the playing field significantly for Sven & Co. Mid game the lack of popboom is a prob but not insurmountable as pop growth comes mainly from scads of rich coastal squares.

Fair enough. You are of course exactly right wrt what the best strat for Sven is, but I still don't see how this make them better than any other faction. Who is worse in your opinion?

	15-08-2003 07:51									#55
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Good question Busta.

You know I really don't know.

Pre SMAX patching I woulda give a nod to Morgie for being a builder with an inability to pop boom. Now he oozes energy and can finally golden age pop boom.

Guess if push comes to shove I'ld vote Santi or Pirates despite the fact that I love to play both of them. Santi is a good vanilla but no doubt about it the industry hit bites hard. Mid game everyone gets elites (or should be getting them) so the window of opportunity is early game elites. No ability to overcome the industry hit with wealth also hurts. Every other faction in mid game will likely have ++ industry ratings by either going planned (and most likely pop booming) or by running wealth simply amplifying th problem Santi is going to have.

Pirates you've touched on their weaknesses and I agree withthem. The early game is not as dreadful for them as one normally thinks. The real problem as alluded to by USC is the efficiency. Whats more is the first two bases are going to be sea bases. (Which on the one hand is great because you get the free pressure dome. Yippee!!!) Morevoer though what you really get is two bases that are somewhat cut off fromthe rest of your empire, especially if you have decided to go to land side on two differing continents. Internal lines of support are a problem. Rushing crawlers to finish SP's is limitted to one continent or another. Bringing up reinforcements is a problem etc.

USC was on the money wrt to Pirates and efficiency and hence SE choices. FM is a natch for Pirates pre Demo days if you can stand the drones from an already drone prone faction due to bearacracy drones/limits.

OTOH if your playing low fungus, IMO hands down Fung boy is the loser.

	15-08-2003 16:32									#56
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Yay for the Hive !!

Morgans poor ranking could be due to inexperienced players playing him or the fact that us early warmongers know what a pain he is abit later in the game once hes actually got a defense and enough energy to create a sun, therefore he either becomes submissive or dies. I tend to do the same to any Uni player nearby aswell.

	15-08-2003 16:38									#57
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ps, are there any saved games of how misotu plays ? I keep seeing that name mentioned as a great player and all the wins associated with her

Last edited by Lazerus on 17-08-2003 at 16:37

	15-08-2003 18:58									#58
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So basically everyone accepts that Morgan will lose more games than any other faction in human v human competition because he is an easy target right from the beginning, yet no one agrees that this makes him the worst faction??? Also there is agreement that everyone who tries to play him is horrible at it yet this argument isn't used against any other faction, and Morgan still isn't the worst faction?

I guess the real problem here is that no one really wants to commit to declaring any faction the worst based on simple facts. I find it hard to believe that anyone would essentially say that he will lose more than anyone else and is the hardest to play, yet he isn't the worst.

	15-08-2003 22:47									#59
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Surely it's just that the factions are pretty well balanced, meaning that most people can find something good in any of them?

	16-08-2003 07:19									#60
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quote: Originally posted by AMD4EVER So basically everyone accepts that Morgan will lose more games than any other faction in human v human competition because he is an easy target right from the beginning, yet no one agrees that this makes him the worst faction???

Nope, I don't agree with that at all. Even if Morgan really was the weakest faction, player skill and opening position have SO much more to do with your success in this game than any minor difference in the relative merits of a particular faction.

quote: Also there is agreement that everyone who tries to play him is horrible at it yet this argument isn't used against any other faction, and Morgan still isn't the worst faction?

I play Morgan, I am GREAT at it. I'm also good at playing Yang, Miriam and Domai, and I'll concede that all of them are better factions, overall, than Morgan. I've played plenty of Sparta, and I've determined, despite my love of the flavor, that her industry penalty is wildly oppressive.

quote: I guess the real problem here is that no one really wants to commit to declaring any faction the worst based on simple facts. I find it hard to believe that anyone would essentially say that he will lose more than anyone else and is the hardest to play, yet he isn't the worst.

Present some facts that aren't in dispute, and maybe someone will come up with a conclusion based on those facts.

Here are some facts about Morgan:

He's weak at the beginning, but gets very strong in the midgame. Properly developed, he can expand faster than any other faction. His support limitations encourage players to make bad defensive decisions, which can lose games in a hurry. With a solid opening, left unmolested, Morgan can run away with EVERY SP in the GAME.
Good play with Morgan means you HAVE to know how to make the best use of your Energy Credits, you can't just switch to planned/police and rely on your huge support and industry to overwhelm your enemies.