09-08-2003 22:18									#31
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I would hope they are using oil money for this...

	09-08-2003 22:51									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You want them to have Bi-planes?

Only if they have no guns on board.

	09-08-2003 23:00									#33
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You do realize that the Japanese have a more advanced armed service than what you would wish on the Iraqis, Joseph.

	09-08-2003 23:08									#34
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IMO, this is a political payoff for Poland.

	09-08-2003 23:09									#35
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Trying to impose on Iraq a weak military would be politically disadvantageous for the US, as it would "prove" the contention that the US wants the Arabs weak (to please the Zionists), and it would undermine any pro-US Iraqi amdinistration. Plus it gives Iran huge power in the Gulf region by leaving Iraq a paper tiger.

So the US will try to create a large and relatively well armed Iraqi force (which we then hope will be on our side in any future events).

	10-08-2003 02:02									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As far as upgrading our troops goes, we've had several chances to do that, with the incremental upgrades to the M4A1 and M16A2.

Actually the US Army is currently moving ahead with developing the XM-8 and the OCIW asssault rifles.

quote: Caliber: 5.56x45 mm NATO Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt Overall length: no data Barrel length: no data Weight: 2.67 kg empty Rate of fire: no data Magazine capacity: 30 rounds (STANAG) The development of the XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle was initiated by US Army in the 2002, when contract was issued to the Alliant Techsystems Co of USA to study possibilities of development of kinetic energy part of the XM29 OICW weapon into separate lightweight assault rifle, which could, in the case of success, replace the aging M16A2 rifles and M4A1 carbines in US military service. According to the present plans, the XM8 should enter full production circa 2005, if not earlier, several years before the XM-29 OICW. The XM8 (M8 after its official adoption) should become a standard next generation US forces assault rifle. It will fire all standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition, and, to further decrease the load on the future infantrymen, a new type of 5.56mm ammunition is now being developed. This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons. Along with 20% weight reduction in the XM8 (compared to the current issue M4A1 carbine), this will be a welcome move for any infantryman, already overloaded by protective, communications and other battle equipment. The XM8 will be quite similar to the "KE" (kinetic energy) part of the XM-29 OICW system, being different mostly in having a telescoped plastic buttstock of adjustable length, and a detachable carrying handle with the Picatinny rail. Technical description. The XM8 is a derivative of the Heckler-Koch G36 assault rifle, and thus it is almost similar to that rifle in design and functioning. The key differences are the NATO-standard magazine housing that will accept M16-type magazines, the set of Picatinny rails on the forend, telescoped buttstock of adjustable length and a different scope, mounted on the Picatinny rail, built into the detachable carrying handle.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm

The OCIW is particularly impressive with the following capabilities.

quote: The new firearm is, in effect, two weapons in one. It has one barrel that shoots a 5.56-millimeter shell and is intended to be used like an M-16 for close-range fighting. Sitting atop that barrel is a second that fires 20-millimeter air-burst shells. The larger shells function like small grenades, spraying deadly shrapnel for several feet in every direction. The weapon's most revolutionary feature is the way it uses a laser and computer to get at enemies who are concealed up to 3,280 feet away. That's nearly two-thirds of a mile and about twice the effective range of the M-16... To use the 20-millimeter gun, the soldier peers through a telescopic sight and lines up a red dot over the target. The rifle calculates the distance to the target, gauges the effect of air density and picks the point where the muzzle should aim. This information is transmitted to an electronic fuse built into the shell. The gun displays a second red dot in the telescopic sight to show where the rifle should now be pointed. The soldier aims at the dot and pulls the trigger. The 20-caliber shell will kill or seriously injure an enemy within about 17 feet of the burst, civilian weapon experts believe.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm

	10-08-2003 05:18									#37
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MtG, but, are the new weapons that much better so that we would be "stupid" not to upgrade?

BTW, I see some very fancy new hi-tech weapons on their way. One, I don't recall the name now, but you can play with it in Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon, is really more of a grenade laucher than a rifle. You can shoot 12-18 grenades with automatic reload. They can be programmed to strike right on target, IIRC.

Also, the rifle is scoped, making it one of the best weapons in that game.

	10-08-2003 05:31									#38
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Also, the Ruskies seem to have their own superweapon in the AN-94. A recent History Channel program showed it in operation. The barrel recoils when it shoots so that the whole rifle does not. While the barrel is recoiling, the weapon shoots a second round. Because of this, two rounds are sent towards the aim point before the weapon itself begins recoiling. Sounds impressive.

	10-08-2003 07:03									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, but, are the new weapons that much better so that we would be "stupid" not to upgrade? BTW, I see some very fancy new hi-tech weapons on their way. One, I don't recall the name now, but you can play with it in Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon, is really more of a grenade laucher than a rifle. You can shoot 12-18 grenades with automatic reload. They can be programmed to strike right on target, IIRC. Also, the rifle is scoped, making it one of the best weapons in that game.

Read my post already! The OCIW is the weapon you are describing. The current plan is to have one of those per 4 man squad and the XM8 as the primary assault rifle since its significantly lighter than the M-16.

	10-08-2003 07:38									#40
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Talk about the OICW and XM8 have been around for several years, as have the evaluation contracts.

Given the history of the length of field test and evaluation periods, the speed of approval by the Infantry Board, the time delay in getting out BOIPs and then actually following them, and the vagaries of funding Army issues (and infantry issues in particular), even if these weapons are perfect in all respects, it will be a hell of a long time before they would be issued. Even IF they work as advertised and IF they are adopted force-wide.

The last inside estimates I heard were around 2015, and that was not for force-wide adoption.

That's if the weapon proves to be reliable enough in field testing, which will center on maintainability and operability/failure rates in a variety of field conditions in the hands of average infantry (both 11-Bravo and 11-Mike) and non-Infantry CS MOS's. Some excellent weapons (most notably the M63 Stoner LMG) have been produced and failed field test and evaluation.

	10-08-2003 08:02									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Talk about the OICW and XM8 have been around for several years, as have the evaluation contracts. Given the history of the length of field test and evaluation periods, the speed of approval by the Infantry Board, the time delay in getting out BOIPs and then actually following them, and the vagaries of funding Army issues (and infantry issues in particular), even if these weapons are perfect in all respects, it will be a hell of a long time before they would be issued. Even IF they work as advertised and IF they are adopted force-wide. The last inside estimates I heard were around 2015, and that was not for force-wide adoption.

The XM8 is definately a different beast than the OICW. The XM8 is a derivative of the Heckler-Koch G36 assault rifle, an already deployed weapon. The weapon has just a few modifications, including being able to use a M-16 magazine with NATO standard magazine housing. The description I read predicts it will be out in 2005 or EARLIER. I would be extremely surprised if it doesn't begin to be deployed with US infantry by 2006.

	10-08-2003 09:10									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Also, the Ruskies seem to have their own superweapon in the AN-94. A recent History Channel program showed it in operation. The barrel recoils when it shoots so that the whole rifle does not. While the barrel is recoiling, the weapon shoots a second round. Because of this, two rounds are sent towards the aim point before the weapon itself begins recoiling. Sounds impressive.

It may not be as effective for general use as it sounds at first glance.

quote: At this point, one can ask "is all this complication of the AN-94 mechanism worth the achieved results"? From my point of view, there's no simple answer. The trained professional warrior can use the 2-rounds burst capability of AN-94 to the great degree of success, but prior to this, a lot of time and resources should be spent to train this professional soldier to use AN-94 effectively. Unlike the more common designs, like the Russian Kalashnikov or American M16 rifles and others, the AN-94 internals are not "user friendly", and it took weeks, if not months, to get used to this rifle, its assembly / disassembly and maintenance procedures. It is also more expensive to made and maintain, than the AK-74. From all this it is obvious why this very interesting rifle hardly will see any widespread service, at least with the Russian Army (which at this moment is conscripted by the large, and on a low budget). On the other hand, some elite units can make a good use for major advantages of the AN-94. From the personal, but trustworthy reports I can add the following. First, the ergonomics of the AN-94 is not the best one. The shape of the pistol grip, and the inclined from the vertical plane magazine are way from being comfortable. The rear diopter sight has small apertures, not protected from dirt, and is hard to clean in the battle conditions. It also has sharp edges and can snag in the clothes or make a scratches on the skin when handled roughly. The grenade launcher mount under the barrel is a little weird, since it uses a large "bridge" between the stock and the launcher. The folding butt interferes with the trigger when folded, and the fire selector, which is separated from the safety, is hard to operate, especially when wet. On the other hand, as said above, in the 2-rounds burst it is very accurate and offers a great advantage in the terminal effectiveness over the standard single shot mode.