09-08-2003 21:26									#31
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly You win; that's the dumbest analogy I've ever seen on Poly. Your trophy's in the mail. Here's a proper analogy, just so you can tell the difference. Suppose, as a private citizen, I own a strip mall in suburban Chicago; suppose I donate all the money I make from the mall -- beyond what's required to feed and clothe my family -- to charity. (1) Is the strip-mall itself exempt from property taxes? (Answer: No). (2) Should it be?

This example misses the legal point entirely. If you donate the money you make from the mall in one year, that's nice and deductible, but it doesn't mean (a) you HAVE to do that every year, or (b) that the strip mall is OPERATED solely for that purpose. IF you formed a qualified 501(c)(3) organization that owned that strip mall, then you'd have no discretion as to how you distributed the "profits" (technically earnings in excess of cost), you would generally be exempt from most forms of taxation in most jurisdictions. Filing for property tax exemption on previously non-exempt property varies from taxing jurisdiction to taxing jurisdiction, but in most jurisdictions, it can be done.

This still misses the point that the Establishment Clause is intended to completely bar government jurisdiction over religious activity. It's not that the government chooses to tax one, and not the other, it's that the jurisdiction of government ends at the church property line for a vast number of purposes. (Land use and public safety being the almost exclusive exceptions, because the laws in those areas are based primarily on off-site impacts.)

	09-08-2003 21:27									#32
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Then tax them, otherwise it's just a legal hole for all kinds of unscrupulous "businessmen".

If it was, you'd have tons of them, instead of just a few nuts. You can form your own religion here, but it is rather constraining to go through the accounting hoopla. There's more money to be made in regular business without those constraints.

	09-08-2003 21:36									#33
	Inflate your Upload Space

MtG - I take you point and agree completely; I was not responding to the legal point, but to PLATO's assertion that tax-exemption is deserved just because an organization "does good."

BTW, your characterization of how church-owned property is taxed actually differes from state to state -- not surprisingly, since property taxes aren't federal. But I take your overall point.

	09-08-2003 21:46									#34
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly You win; that's the dumbest analogy I've ever seen on Poly. Your trophy's in the mail.

Then you apparently don't pay attention.

You were talking about tax subsidy, correct? It exists in many forms (One of which I pointed out in the example that was apparently beyond your comprehension (Sorry-will try to keep it simple)). These exemptions exist because government has determined (through the voice of the people) that certain activities are worthwhile. Weather or not it is relieving the burden on lower income people or relieving the burden on charitable organizations is irrelevant.

The problem comes in when people disagree on what is worthwhile. Many would agree that EIC is wrong just as many would agree that tax-exempt status is wrong fro charities. The determination that government must make is weather or not the benefit to society outweighs the cost. Given the investment in people from both a pysical and moral perspective it would be very hard to argue that Churches do not benefit society. I don't agree with the teaching of Islam, but i support a mosque's tax exempt status because of the benefit that having that mosque provides for society. Hope I didn't get to complicated there. I will forward the trophy that you posses back to you upon reciept...apparently already in the hands of the rightful owner.

	09-08-2003 21:59									#35
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Play nicely now, guys.

	09-08-2003 23:11									#36
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by PLATO I have no problem with synagogues, mosques, etc.. having tax exempt status. In fact, they should have.

I'm prety sure that they do.

	09-08-2003 23:34									#37
	Remove this text

quote: There has been a little bit of talk about churches having their tax-exempt status taken away. I'm not prepared to support this yet, but it is decent idea. And a new way to generate revenue for the goverment.

The proposal would backfire. Churches take a fair amount of the government's burden due to the social programs they provide. By taxing the churches, people would be much less likely to give if they know a portion of the money goes directly to the government. Ergo, the church has to cut back on the programs, and the government takes up the slack.

quote: The Catholics (and not only them) own firms, banks, estates and other economic institutions, hold back large amounts of capital etc. etc.

I don't see a problem if the profits are plowed back into charitable works, as many of these institutions do, and not profits for the owners.

	10-08-2003 00:00									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"Only if synagogues, mosques, etc etc get the same status. Ideally, none of them should, they are businesses like any other, and don't do any DIRECT charitable work."

What the hell??? My church is NOT a business!!! We make barely enough money in offerings and member support to scrape by every year, with any extra going to fund causes in the Boston area, plus we run a thrift store so that people can get clothes for extremely little money, etc... What planet are you from???

	10-08-2003 00:17									#39
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by CorpusScorpius Does anyone know if the pastors,reverends,priests, ministers pay any taxes if they work exclusively for the church?

Yes, they do. There are some special deduction issues (which often get abused by scammers in the "ordain yourself and declare your home your church" school of BS) relating to church-provided housing, and some other areas of employee business expenses and benefits taxation, but in general, employees of religious organizations are subject to all standard employment taxes.

IRS Tax Topic 417 - Earnings for Clergy

	10-08-2003 00:28									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly True of churches themselves, but what of, say, income-producing property (office buildings, for example) owned by a Catholic diocese? The income is plowed back into the diocese, which then spends it in ways that allow it to be "non-profit"; but the property itself has absolutely no status as religious.

Almost all Not For Profit organizations own property and offices.

quote: (2) Not taxing churches is in effect a government subsidy of religion. Think about it. The big church down the street is not paying taxes on its property. Any other operation would be paying property tax - ergo, the city is losing the revenue that property taxes would be generating. That is a classic subsidy.

It doesn't have anything to do with religion. It is a NON PROFIT, therefore it is not taxable, just like any humanitarian group, etc. To take away their tax exempt status while they meet all NON PROFIT requirements would be a direct attempt to quell religion, and that cannot be argued. Some of you are trying to add religion to this, when religion doesn't have anything to do with whether or not non-profit organizations are taxed.

	10-08-2003 01:54									#41
	Inflate your Upload Space

Very good points. I never thought of it as churches being non-profit organizations. I guess it makes sense, but I hadn't seen that argument raised. Of course, then, they shouldn't be taxed.

And other non-profit organizations can back political candidates, so I don't see why churches shouldn't.

	10-08-2003 01:59									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There are tax law distinctions between not-for-profit organizations, non-profit and charitable organizations, non-profit religious organizations.

Depending on the nature of the organization, promotion, fundraising and other forms of support for political candidates, as well as some types of lobbying of officeholders, can result in loss of tax exempt status.

	10-08-2003 02:52									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Why don't you just go to a KKK meeting and ask if Black's should have equal rights?

Would be about as smart as coming into an Atheist refuge like this, and asking such a dumbass question.

	10-08-2003 03:23									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 I don't see a problem if the profits are plowed back into charitable works, as many of these institutions do, and not profits for the owners.

Sure Every organization will claim that. You only have to follow the stream of the profits of firm x around 10 corners and you'll see how charitable it actually is! The main aim of a religion is redemption, salvation etc. and only if you accept that one should give them tax exemption. If not, free those parts from the institutions from taxes, which are actually occupied with charity. Again against catholics (actually I like protestants even less, but Austria is so predominately catholic that I know better about them), most of the money is simply pumped into restauration of culturally important buildings, i.e. churches (maybe make a tax exemption for that, not a bad idea) and part goes to Rome, from where it's pumped to spread the faith around the world and pay the fines the church has to pay for lawsuits against pedophile priests. Sure, exempt that from taxes...

	10-08-2003 04:37									#45
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If they wish to participate in government, they should be taxed like everyone else. If they want to shut up and practice their religion privately, fine. Then they shouldn't be taxed.

	10-08-2003 11:11									#46
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by PLATO Then you apparently don't pay attention. You were talking about tax subsidy, correct? It exists in many forms (One of which I pointed out in the example that was apparently beyond your comprehension (Sorry-will try to keep it simple)). These exemptions exist because government has determined (through the voice of the people) that certain activities are worthwhile. Weather or not it is relieving the burden on lower income people or relieving the burden on charitable organizations is irrelevant. The problem comes in when people disagree on what is worthwhile. Many would agree that EIC is wrong just as many would agree that tax-exempt status is wrong fro charities. The determination that government must make is weather or not the benefit to society outweighs the cost. Given the investment in people from both a pysical and moral perspective it would be very hard to argue that Churches do not benefit society. I don't agree with the teaching of Islam, but i support a mosque's tax exempt status because of the benefit that having that mosque provides for society. Hope I didn't get to complicated there. I will forward the trophy that you posses back to you upon reciept...apparently already in the hands of the rightful owner.

You do understand the difference between a tax subsidy and a tax exemption, don't you? I mean, I'm only named after a Marx Brothers character, while you've taken the name of a great philosopher, so I'd expect you to grasp that.

Follow along: I am not arguing against tax-exempt status for churches; I am arguing against tax-exempt property-tax status for church property not directly involved in the church's ministry. As MtG points out, this exemption does not exist in some places, but it does exist in others (it's state-by-state). So the analogy is not to the EIC; it's more like saying parents with children don't have to pay any taxes at all, because raising kids is such a darned special thing to be doing.

	10-08-2003 15:41									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I spent a year as treasurer at my church (RCA), and I can assure you that we pay payroll taxes. IIRC, we would also have to pay sales tax if we operated a shop (which we don't), and we would have to pay property tax and income tax on any for-profit property (of which we have one -- a parking lot that is leased by a restaurant during the week).

	11-08-2003 09:14									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Very good points. I never thought of it as churches being non-profit organizations.

So? Why shouldn't non-profit organizations be taxed? Locally, the Jockey Club is a non-profit organization, but they do pay a good part of income as taxes.

	11-08-2003 09:16									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Why shouldn't non-profit organizations be taxed?

Because they aren't in it to make money? After all, according to corporate taxes, the US only charges tax on profits. A non-profit, by definition, would not have to pay taxes, right?

	12-08-2003 00:02									#50
	Remove this text

quote: part goes to Rome, from where it's pumped to spread the faith around the world and pay the fines the church has to pay for lawsuits against pedophile priests.

Well, stop filing lawsuits against the Catholic church, and they will be able to do more charity work.

Do you expect the Catholic church not to defend itself against lawsuits? Where do you think the money is going to come from? From the money that would otherwise go to charity.

I agree that victims that have been abused should be compensated, but there are some who play off those who don't like the Catholic church through false allegations. These claims just waste money that could otherwise go to help people.

Finally, all the Catholic churches give money to the pope, just like other organisations pay fees to their parent body. Other charitable organisations can do this, so why not the church?

	12-08-2003 00:13									#51
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Do you ever checker the insiders on stock trading?

Man there are a lot of churches investing a lot of money?!

Not for profit? My butt!

I have mulled the point of churches paying taxes for the separation of church and state, but in doing so you do curtail freedom of religion. Yet, even by taxing a church this does not mean that you are prohibiting the practice... though you may be hindering it.

All in all, I think that taxes should be levied on churches that have earnings that exceed what they need to operate. Why does a mormon temple need to be so huge and decorative? Why does the pastor at a catholic church need a $4.2 million mansion in the suburbs? Religion has become a shelter for con artist and schemers, yet we should not punish the country parish that relies on donations to feed the clergy. Sometimes charity begins and ends at church...

	12-08-2003 00:54									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Well, stop filing lawsuits against the Catholic church, and they will be able to do more charity work.

tell the church to stop raping kids and then stop protecting the rapists...