10-08-2003 20:50									#31
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

st_swithin:

thats the second time i saw those lines on apolyton... what do they mean?

	10-08-2003 20:57									#32
	Support Apolyton

quote: i know but some certain people in this thread are over-simplifying **** by saying that whatever their elitist attitudes consider as bad will be seen as the dark ages while whatever little underground thing they like will be glorified...

*coughlookwhostalkingcough*

quote: rap-like artforms have already pre-dated shakespeare... ever heard of bards?

mind expanding on that thought? Every musical genre is its own, though it may have borrowed from other genres it is still unique. Rap has been around since it has been called rap, and how long has that been? (seriously how long has it been, I dont know )
Besides, if Bards were around first then rap would be bard-like, not the other way around.

	10-08-2003 21:01									#33
	Support Apolyton

quote: st_swithin: thats the second time i saw those lines on apolyton... what do they mean?

sheesh speer, go get some culture.

"I can make you speak indian"
"how?"
"I just did!" *laughs*

(points at your shirt) "You have something on your shirt"
(you look down) "whe..."
(...I flick youre nose) *laughs*

old jokes speer, old jokes.

	10-08-2003 21:15									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Here's one for the American History XI book:

You find out that the mirror-image swastika, also known as the "crux grammata" (manji) inspires Derek to higher aspirations. In Chinese, 'mahn jii' sounds like the words meaning "slowly healing."

[Somewhat paraphrased from the translation notes of "Blade of the Immortal" by Hiroaki Samura:]

The main character in "Blade of the Immortal," Manji, has taken the "crux grammata" as both his name and his personal symbol. This symbol is also known as the swastika, a name derived from the Sanskrit scastika (meaning "welfare," from su - "well" + asti - "he is").

As a symbol of prosperity and good fortune, the swastika was widely used throughout the ancient world (for example, appearing often on Mesopotamian coinage), including North and South America.

Furthermore, the symbol has been used by many the Chinese and Japanese for more than TWO THOUSAND YEARS to denote Buddhist foods which are certified to be vegetarian, in the same way that the word 'kosher' denotes food properly blessed and sanctified by a Rabbi.

The swastika had NO anti-Semitic or pro-Nazi meaning behind the use of the symbol from around 3,000 BCE (bc) until 1910. THOSE ANTI-SEMITIC MEANINGS DID NOT EXIST UNTIL 1910, AND ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE HAKENKREUZ (the lunar symbol, arms clockwise), NOT THE SWASTIKA (the solar symbol, arms counterclockwise).

After 1910, Buddhists were shunned as being 'insensitive' to the plight of the Jews during WWII, and were asked to refrain from using the symbol, lest they injure someone's feelings. The Buddhists, ever anxious to avoid stepping on the feelings of others, ceased to use the symbol, but the religion as a whole began to lose coherence, since part of the language of the Buddhists had been eradicated forever by the victims of the Holocaust: the Jews.

I feel that if anyone has a gripe with the Jews, it's the Buddhists. They have a right to declare a jihad on Zion, but it's not Our way. We believe that every species can smell its own extinction, and often desperate animals will try to pull others down with it, just or not.

Good luck eradicating more and more of the history and honour behind other religions! You have already succeeded in eliminating the Buddhists from your allies, as well as any support we may have lent you. Unfortunately, we were the last of those who might have offered any help, and you turned your backs to us, and shunned us, and were spiteful.

We no longer have any other cheek to turn. Instead, we turn our collective backs upon you, and swear that for all Eternity, the Jewish people shall NEVER again pass under the merciful eyes of Buddah.

In the next 10 years, maybe less, the Jewish peoples will merely be a bedtime story for children, in which a great Evil had been banished from the light of the Sun and the Moon, and the victory of Good will be known by that symbol which was so dreaded and loathed by them.

LONG LIVE JUSTICE!!!

	11-08-2003 02:03									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

so uh, st_swithin, I guess the point you offer in that post is that even seemingly immortalized cultural symbols like crux grammata can suddenly and through bizaare circumstances be abandoned and largely forgotten even after thousands of years of use?

	11-08-2003 02:46									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by st_swithin After 1910, Buddhists were shunned as being 'insensitive' to the plight of the Jews during WWII, and were asked to refrain from using the symbol, lest they injure someone's feelings. The Buddhists, ever anxious to avoid stepping on the feelings of others, ceased to use the symbol, but the religion as a whole began to lose coherence, since part of the language of the Buddhists had been eradicated forever by the victims of the Holocaust: the Jews. I feel that if anyone has a gripe with the Jews, it's the Buddhists. They have a right to declare a jihad on Zion, but it's not Our way. We believe that every species can smell its own extinction, and often desperate animals will try to pull others down with it, just or not. Good luck eradicating more and more of the history and honour behind other religions! You have already succeeded in eliminating the Buddhists from your allies, as well as any support we may have lent you. Unfortunately, we were the last of those who might have offered any help, and you turned your backs to us, and shunned us, and were spiteful. We no longer have any other cheek to turn. Instead, we turn our collective backs upon you, and swear that for all Eternity, the Jewish people shall NEVER again pass under the merciful eyes of Buddah. In the next 10 years, maybe less, the Jewish peoples will merely be a bedtime story for children, in which a great Evil had been banished from the light of the Sun and the Moon, and the victory of Good will be known by that symbol which was so dreaded and loathed by them. LONG LIVE JUSTICE!!!

You are one seriously disturbed individual.

	11-08-2003 08:34									#37
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by st_swithin Said one Idiot to an apprentice indiot: "I can make you speak Idian." Said the Walrus to the Eggman (points at your shirt) "You have something on your shirt."

The Eggman is Paul. Goo Goo Gajoob!

	11-08-2003 08:38									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: rap-like artforms have already pre-dated shakespeare... ever heard of bards?

Hehehehe... have you ever hear bard songs, Albert? They happen to be very little like rap. I don't think many would consider rap to be bard-like.

	11-08-2003 08:40									#39
	Remove this text

Space:

my point is that just cause something now (ie- pop music) may seem stupid with no meaning and just something for short term mass consumption so was the classics... there was nothing especially great about shakespeare in his time (except that he was thought by his contemporaries to be rude and bastardizing theater) and yet he is now considered the best play-wright...

	11-08-2003 08:42									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: there was nothing especially great about shakespeare in his time

The question remains then, if he wasn't thought to be great in his time, why did he perform in front of royalty? He surely had to be somewhat good to perform for such an audience!

	11-08-2003 08:45									#41
	Tired of ads?

Imran:

whats so different about it? bards, or their equivalents in dozens of cultures such as griots, went around with full stories in verse in their heads which they recited to simplistic music.

	11-08-2003 08:47									#42
	Suffering from ads?

"Star Wars won't endure."



Ever seen "This Gun For Hire" Rufus?

	11-08-2003 08:50									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Imran:

Shakespeare wrote so many plays about the english kings including the tudor line in order to secure a royal audience...

and in any event, that does not mean that the rest of europe respected shakespeare... the french (and many english) especially were disgusted by his plays because they broke all the standard rules of theater and playwriting of the time. he was considered rude, uncouth, with no respect for the established laws of theater.

so similiarily, it's very likely that modern pop culture which some here may described with the same words the contemporaries of shakespeare described him with, might end up being classics in the future

	11-08-2003 08:51									#44
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: whats so different about it? bards, or their equivalents in dozens of cultures such as griots, went around with full stories in verse in their heads which they recited to simplistic music.

And that's exactly what rap is? Come on... you've just described a wide variety of music. Never heard of people just jaming and singing along stories? Or improv blues stuff?

Unless what you meant to say is that rap is like music .

	11-08-2003 08:57									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: the french (and many english) especially were disgusted by his plays because they broke all the standard rules of theater and playwriting of the time. he was considered rude, uncouth, with no respect for the established laws of theater.

The French disdained anything English, so that isn't anything. The fact that some English disdained Shakesphere and called him rude and uncouth doesn't mean the majority did. Many upper class families did go to see his plays. You can tell this by the layout of The Globe (his theater). The poor sat on the ground, but most of the seating was for richer folk.

	11-08-2003 09:01									#46
	Inflate your Upload Space

Imran:

blues, improv jazz (though the music is a bit too complicated for something that a person can do on the corner or the step), a form of jamaican poetry reading to a steady rhythm, etc. are all pre-cursors to rap... rap is just the present version of it... maybe rap's sucessor will be more famous but the same basic progression from bards to blues to rap has lasted for centuries.

	11-08-2003 09:04									#47
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Imran:

EXACTLY MY POINT!

Shakespeare was like popular culture... the masses enjoyed him as did plenty of the rulers... the critics and people who imagined themselves with higher tastes or higher standards (ie- think the people in this thread who claimed 20th century hollywood and pop culture would be dismissed as stupid in the future) thought shakespeare was garbage...

thank you for proving my point... god damn people on apolyton don't even think anymore

	11-08-2003 09:05									#48
	Support Apolyton

So rap is basically the progression of blues, country, bards, everything? You could also say the same thing about rock and disco (which are undoubtable progressions of older music). Do you think disco will be famous in the future? After all, it is the natural progression (and has begat trance and dance music, of course)?

	11-08-2003 09:06									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The icon is not the genre, the icon is the genius within a genre. Maybe rap can produce one like Will. Unlikely, but possible.

Like many others, my money is on the 4 mop tops, although they will not be as big as some others, like the Bard.

	11-08-2003 09:07									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Imran:

disco's successors will be known to future people... the thing with disco is that in its disco-form being called disco, it didn't have much of a run (it's already a thing of the past)... only a few years... rap as rap has lasted over 20 so far...

	11-08-2003 09:08									#51
	Tired of ads?

quote: Shakespeare was like popular culture... the masses enjoyed him as did plenty of the rulers... the critics and people who imagined themselves with higher tastes or higher standards (ie- think the people in this thread who claimed 20th century hollywood and pop culture would be dismissed as stupid in the future) thought shakespeare was garbage... thank you for proving my point... god damn people on apolyton don't even think anymore

Say what? I was actually NOT proving your point. The 'critics' (ie, the richer folk) did like Shakesphere. Elites very much liked to go, as I pointed out. Where did I talk about the masses? I talked about the rich going to see his stuff more than the poor.

Or is this another case of you making something up from someone else's post in the hope of bolstering your own point?

	11-08-2003 09:08									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

To be fair though, we have to admit that many snobbish sorts in our contemporary society likewise cannot resist some of the lures of pop culture. The fact that shakespears plays were performed for royalty does not by itself indicate that they were seen much differently by the snobs of Shakespears day than modern pop culture is seen by it's present day elitist critics.

	11-08-2003 09:12									#53
	Tired of ads?

quote: disco's successors will be known to future people... the thing with disco is that in its disco-form being called disco, it didn't have much of a run (it's already a thing of the past)... only a few years... rap as rap has lasted over 20 so far...

It's only because you like rap that you see disco as dead. Trance and Dance, which are the disco of today, are just as different as modern day rap was to the early stuff of the early 80s, of course more people called it Hip Hop back then anyway.

Though in a 100 years, I think that both disco and rap will be forgotten. People will remember the Bee Gees and Public Enemy, etc.. the big guys in the field, but won't remember much else of the genre... just that it existed.

edit: Think about it. We're smart people. But how much do we REALLY know about music in 1904? Really, not much at all. I'm sure Boris and the classical guys know some of their genre, but as for the other popular stuff of the times... how many really know?

	11-08-2003 09:26									#54
	Support Apolyton

Imran:

do you shut your brain off when you read one of my posts or something? one more time...

i noticed how some people in this thread were saying how modern pop culture which is popular among all walks of life, such as hollywood, will be seen as inferior in the future... people in this thread have come to that conclusion because they themselves see pop culture as base and stupid...

similiarly, shakespeare was popular among englishmen of all walks of life but at the same time many critics and those who thought they had great standards (like some of the people in this thread) believed him stupid and would not be known in the future... they would never have imagined him being the greatest playwrite of all time...

therefore, these same apolytoners who like the 17th century french saw shakespeare as garbage, might just be hounding the aspects of 20th century pop culture that would be famed and seen as high art in the future...

quote: Trance and Dance, which are the disco of today, are just as different as modern day rap was to the early stuff of the early 80s, of course more people called it Hip Hop back then anyway.

not really... the background music has changed from old disco music to rock to soul samples to jazz, etc. but the actually rapper's art has remained the same... Grandmaster Flash's song The Message from god knows when... 79? 80? can hold its own today.

and why public enemy? i dont think public enemy sold nearly enough records to be the only rap group remembered... multi-platinum artists like 2pac and jay-z got a better chance of being known in the future than public enemy... to put things in perspective, 2pac's first album was released in 1991 and his tenth year release Until the End of Time when sold over 4 million copies. Public Enemy also released a cd (Revolverlution) around the same time and it flopped horribly... brought no new fans and even the old fans probably didn't bother buying it. a shame that PE is ALREADY old news...

	11-08-2003 09:30									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

you're right about 1904 Imran... i think years ago i posted on apolyton asking about what kind of music people listened to at the turn of the century... my guess is Susa and marching music was popular but the lack of record players and radios prevented the music industry from going anywhere (and no one had a full marching band on hand to listen to) so most people's exposure to music was piano playing and fiddles and church music.

	11-08-2003 09:32									#56
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

and thats another thing... lack of recordings prevented 1904 music from being kept and remembered...

	11-08-2003 09:36									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess Mozart has been long lost, then...

	11-08-2003 09:39									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

notyoueither:

I think 2pac, had he lived, would probably have become that icon. he died at the extremely young age of 26... had he Paul McCartney's years (thats the name of the beetle guy who's still alive right?), he might have proved to be that icon.

	11-08-2003 09:44									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Maybe, and maybe he will still be. That is the great thing about it. Real talent will win out over the long run. Whether I like Rap or no will matter not.

	11-08-2003 09:44									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

notyoueither:

i dont know... but you can't deny that having music on vinyl, cassettes, cds, etc. greatly increases the chance that such music will be known in the future and by peoples all over the world... why mozart still is known i dont know... but i'm sure 75% of his contemporaries (such as Salerie) never achieved any fame beyond their generation... same with shakespeare who is world famous after so many centuries yet his contemporaries (whom some critics surely thought of as better) are anonymous.