12-08-2003 21:32									#61
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oh, i wouldn't expect them to actually come here and make the us do anything. nor would i flee to china.

but they could just as easily threaten the united states and exert strong pressures and influence in order to stop any potential trouble. now, whether they would actually do this or not is another question entirely.

that, i'd have to say is unlikely, but so is american turning xenophobic and trying to eliminate asians. after all, in the coming years, we'll be tightly integrated into the financial and intellectual infrastructure, so...

	12-08-2003 21:35									#62
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The last line of this absurd article says it all:

quote: Larry M. Wortzel is vice president for foreign policy and defense studies at The Heritage Foundation

As Lord Merciless pointed out, it's wee bit silly to get all flustered over potential Chinese space-based strategies when the US currently maintains hundreds of MIRVed warheads 30 minutes away from incinerating the PRC. Is it really the US who should be worrying here? Compare the military histories of the US and the PRC and tell me which one is more likely to be an aggressor.

Mr. Wortzel also failed to mention that China is a nation that has been repeatedly invaded and occupied by foreign powers (including the US) over the last 150 years. History has a little lesson there for you, Defiant. Read up on it.

quote: Many of their politicians see the United States as their one true enemy

Oh, really? Got any names for these shadowy politicians? I didn’t think so. While there certainly are conservative hardheads in the government, unlike the US they aren’t currently running the country. I don't know of any high profile Chinese leaders who are as remotely as terrifying as Donald Rumsfeld or **** Cheney.

quote: It's ludicrous to think our countries can or will get along.

Thank heavens most Chinese don’t seem to agree with drivel like this.

quote: Does China really have any friends?

Does China really have any enemies?

He11, I bet since Dubya and company took office, the PRC probably has more friends than the US! At least China is on very cordial terms with France and Germany!

quote: On the other hand, a little less communism

A little less? I didn’t know there was any left at this point!

quote: China is not our friend, nor has it been our friend since 1949. One day you boys under 40 will fine out. I may be gone when it happen, but it will happen. The Chinese do not think like western man

Are you saying that anyone who does not think like "the western man" must not be our friend? That's what it sounds like you are implying. Do you speak Chinese? Is it possible that the reason you don't understand them is because you don't speak their language? It's richly ironic that most Chinese actually have a pretty favorable attitude towards Americans.

quote: and elijah, i do find it amusing that you like china, when it has one of (if not the) worst human rights records on the planet.

Where were you when someone posted the figures recently showing that the rate of capital punishment in China is not that much higher than that of Texas! China has problems, but you have to remember that it aso has 1/4 of the world's population. When you start to look at the abuses on a per capita level, the perspective changes.

quote: Having spent years living amongst chinese people I agree completely with Joseph. They dont think like we do. Why should they?

Are you also implying that anyone who thinks differently is ... our enemy? By the way, out of curiousity, where did you live in China, and when did you live here?

quote: You dont have to live there though, one only needs to look at China's history to see that fact.

When you refer to China's history, are you talking about pre- or post-Mao?

	12-08-2003 21:41									#63
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quote: China could care less about you, unless you are a member of the their Communist Party.

That's just flat-out stupid-wrong.

Forgive me, but those of us who actually live in China sometimes get weary of our bretheren back home who think China is some sort of oppressive police state. You guys are stuck in a Cultural Revolution time-warp.

Factoring out cultural factors like food, my life here in Shanghai is not all that different than my life in San Francisco - except that it's much safer here (a fact conveniently forgotten when talk turns to "human rights").

	12-08-2003 22:05									#64
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye The last line of this absurd article says it all: quote: Larry M. Wortzel is vice president for foreign policy and defense studies at The Heritage Foundation As Lord Merciless pointed out, it's wee bit silly to get all flustered over potential Chinese space-based strategies when the US currently maintains hundreds of MIRVed warheads 30 minutes away from incinerating the PRC. Is it really the US who should be worrying here? Compare the military histories of the US and the PRC and tell me which one is more likely to be an aggressor. Mr. Wortzel also failed to mention that China is a nation that has been repeatedly invaded and occupied by foreign powers (including the US) over the last 150 years. History has a little lesson there for you, Defiant. Read up on it. quote: Many of their politicians see the United States as their one true enemy Oh, really? Got any names for these shadowy politicians? I didn’t think so. While there certainly are conservative hardheads in the government, unlike the US they aren’t currently running the country. I don't know of any high profile Chinese leaders who are as remotely as terrifying as Donald Rumsfeld or **** Cheney. quote: It's ludicrous to think our countries can or will get along. Thank heavens most Chinese don’t seem to agree with drivel like this.[/QUOTEMost Chinese are not running the Gov. [QUOTE] quote: Does China really have any friends? Does China really have any enemies?

yes. It is the USA

quote: He11, I bet since Dubya and company took office, the PRC probably has more friends than the US! At least China is on very cordial terms with France and Germany! quote: On the other hand, a little less communism A little less? I didn’t know there was any left at this point!

You must be joking right? Step on the corner and say something that the Gov. should or should not do and see if there are any Commie left.

quote: quote: China is not our friend, nor has it been our friend since 1949. One day you boys under 40 will fine out. I may be gone when it happen, but it will happen. The Chinese do not think like western man Are you saying that anyone who does not think like "the western man" must not be our friend? That's what it sounds like you are implying. Do you speak Chinese? Is it possible that the reason you don't understand them is because you don't speak their language? It's richly ironic that most Chinese actually have a pretty favorable attitude towards Americans.

I have been married to one for 38 years 9 mos. and 4 days, you tell me.

quote: quote: and elijah, i do find it amusing that you like china, when it has one of (if not the) worst human rights records on the planet. Where were you when someone posted the figures recently showing that the rate of capital punishment in China is not that much higher than that of Texas! China has problems, but you have to remember that it aso has 1/4 of the world's population. When you start to look at the abuses on a per capita level, the perspective changes. quote: Having spent years living amongst chinese people I agree completely with Joseph. They dont think like we do. Why should they? Are you also implying that anyone who thinks differently is ... our enemy? By the way, out of curiousity, where did you live in China, and when did you live here? quote: You dont have to live there though, one only needs to look at China's history to see that fact. When you refer to China's history, are you talking about pre- or post-Mao?

Tell the Gov they cannot have Taiwan.
BTW Taiwan was never their to begain with. Read Taiwan history if you want.

	12-08-2003 22:17									#65
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US conservatives have always needed a boogeyman. Before, it was the USSR. Now, it's the PRC. They need a reason to keep the $$$ going into the military complex.

Even GWB has more sense than some posters on here. After sorta implied China was an enemy when he inaugurated, he quickly made an about-turn, within the first 180 days IIRC. Then bin Laden came along, sudden there's a common enemy. You can't take out terrorists with satellite weapons.

	12-08-2003 22:18									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph BTW Taiwan was never their to begain with. Read Taiwan history if you want.

You want to tell me some Chinese history that I don't know?

	12-08-2003 22:25									#67
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quote: quote: Does China really have any enemies? yes. It is the USA

Oh, the same USA which counts China as it's #4 (about to replace Japan as #3) largest trading partner? That USA? Do you really think the big corporate boys (who are more powerful than ever during the current American administration) would allow such a lucrative relationship to go down the tubes?

quote: You must be joking right? Step on the corner and say something that the Gov. should or should not do and see if there are any Commie left.

No joke. Sorry, but you seem to be a little behind the times. These days there are front page stories of major (Chinese mainland) newspapers that are critical of the government. Maybe you can ask your wife about it.

quote: I have been married to one for 38 years 9 mos. and 4 days, you tell me.

Sorry, that doesn’t answer the question. Again: are you saying that anyone who doesn’t think like "the western man" is our enemy? If not, what where you saying? Or are you going to dodge the question again.

quote: Read Taiwan history if you want.

Maybe you should read up on current cross-straits relations. Hint: there is a new Chinese president, goes by the name of Hu.

	12-08-2003 22:35									#68
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"Mr. Wortzel also failed to mention that China is a nation that has been repeatedly invaded and occupied by foreign powers (including the US) over the last 150 years. History has a little lesson there for you, Defiant. Read up on it."

Give me a history lesson then, when was the last time they were considered a world power and how did they do then, what was the Ming Dynasty about?
History is one thing, but you really need to keep up with current events. China is #4 as you say in economic power(trading partner) and they want to be #1, wouldn't you. If you have it as you think, that's exactly how they want you to think, while secretly, silently gaining power, until it is too late to hinder their progress. WE need to look out for #1, ourselves, nobody else is.

BTW, Russia was another country invaded repeatedly, France and Germany come to mind and look what they did to stop it from happening again.

Last edited by Defiant on 12-08-2003 at 22:52

	12-08-2003 22:50									#69
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quote: see, the way i see it, if there's anything bad in the us and it turns xenophobic against us slanty-eyes, we'll be having a resonably strong nation stand up for us.

Well, who'll stand up for te round-eyes when China starts adding provinces to the "Land of Heaven?"

	12-08-2003 22:53									#70
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Compare the military histories of the US and the PRC and tell me which one is more likely to be an aggressor Mr. Wortzel also failed to mention that China is a nation that has been repeatedly invaded and occupied by foreign powers (including the US) over the last 150 years. History has a little lesson there for you, Defiant. Read up on it.

Since shortly after the end of WW2 when China became a regional power, China has shown no reluctance to involving itself militarily whenever and wherever it can. While China was a regional power such actions were not a direct threat to the USA, but China is clearly working toward developing ICBM's and becoming a military superpower. IMO, we dont need another cold war such as we had in the 70's. We came close to war on a number of occasions over stupid ****, we dont need that happening again.

quote: Oh, really? Got any names for these shadowy politicians? I didn’t think so. While there certainly are conservative hardheads in the government, unlike the US they aren’t currently running the country. I don't know of any high profile Chinese leaders who are as remotely as terrifying as Donald Rumsfeld or **** Cheney.

Try counting the number of high ranking military and secret police in the highest echelons of government and communist party.

quote: Are you also implying that anyone who thinks differently is ... our enemy?

No, quite the opposite. What I said was most americans dont understand the Chinese, or even think that they have different attitudes. American foreign policy in recent years (at least) has been hampered by the lack of american understanding of other cultures.

quote: By the way, out of curiousity, where did you live in China, and when did you live here?

I didnt say I lived in China, I said I lived amongst chinese people (in Vancouver). The area where I grew up is at least 50% chinese, where many older people dont even speak english.

quote: When you refer to China's history, are you talking about pre- or post-Mao?

The entirety of chinese history shows the cultural/attitudinal differences between China and the West.

	12-08-2003 22:55									#71
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China already has ICBMs. But not very many of them. 20, IIRC.

	12-08-2003 22:59									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant "Mr. Wortzel also failed to mention that China is a nation that has been repeatedly invaded and occupied by foreign powers (including the US) over the last 150 years. History has a little lesson there for you, Defiant. Read up on it." Give me a history lesson then, when was the last time they were considered a world power and how did they do then, what was the Ming Dynasty about?

Ming Dynasty went into a voluntary isolationism. They built a wall to keep invaders out and THEIR people in. They abolished any sea-going vessels under penalty of death. I fail to see any forms of aggression or expantionism here.

quote: History is one thing, but you really need to keep up with current events. China is #4 as you say in economic power and they want to be #1, wouldn't you. If you have it as you think, that's exactly how they want you to think, while secretly, silently gaining power, until it is too late to hinder their progress. WE need to look out for #1, ourselves, nobody else is.

What do you want to do about it? Picking more enemies as if we don't have them enough?

If you want to make China our enemy publicly, Islamic fundies would be dancing on the streets from Morroco to Jakarta.

	12-08-2003 23:03									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon Well, who'll stand up for te round-eyes when China starts adding provinces to the "Land of Heaven?"

So my paranoid friend, do you know how powerful "round eyes" are compared to Chinese?

	12-08-2003 23:05									#74
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Since shortly after the end of WW2 when China became a regional power, China has shown no reluctance to involving itself militarily whenever and wherever it can. While China was a regional power such actions were not a direct threat to the USA, but China is clearly working toward developing ICBM's and becoming a military superpower. IMO, we dont need another cold war such as we had in the 70's. We came close to war on a number of occasions over stupid ****, we dont need that happening again.

China already has 30 ICBMs that can reach continental US, enough to incinerate all West Coast big cities and remove us from the #1 world power. If you don't want another Cold War, then do business with them.

	12-08-2003 23:12									#75
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quote: Factoring out cultural factors like food, my life here in Shanghai is not all that different than my life in San Francisco - except that it's much safer here (a fact conveniently forgotten when talk turns to "human rights").

oh those pesky human rights eh, god wouldn't we all be so much better off if people just stopped whining about things like basic legal rights,forced abortions attempted state control of religion and torture and abuse in prisions. after all, if we did all these wonderful things then maybe a few less people would get mugged, and at the end of the day that's what matters, right mindseye?

	12-08-2003 23:17									#76
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Lord,
I am only saying they are already our enemies, I am just pointing it out when people say, "heh! we can't invade Iraq because China will veto it". My point is, China was never on our side nor will they be, the article just makes the statement point blank. If they were to move on Twaiwan, then you bet we will get involved to the fullest capacity, I believe.

	12-08-2003 23:19									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Are you sure you were in the same Navy that I was in? I think you spent to many year in the MMR. Joseph

it makes sense if you think about it.

I'm not a right-winger even though I was in the military. I don't believe China poses any serious threat unless we attack them first, or perhaps in some dispute over Taiwan- but that is not likely.

By fear, I mean internal threats. Terrorism does have the capability to change our way of life. Just look at the Patriot act, and talk of Patriot Act 2.

Americans already live in a state of fear fed by the media. That is my suspician why so many people drive SUV's. They are afraid of dying in a car accident.

	12-08-2003 23:24									#78
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China's current crop of ICBM's are barely that. Hence, their inability to target more than the west coast. Of course with the technology that was transferred to the chinese military under the Clinton administration we've speeded up that process enormously.

	12-08-2003 23:27									#79
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quote: China was never on our side nor will they be

Wrong. Recent example: they twice intervened on our side with North Korea, once by cutting off critical energy shipments.

	12-08-2003 23:28									#80
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quote: Give me a history lesson then, when was the last time they were considered a world power and how did they do then, what was the Ming Dynasty about?

So I take it that you feel the politics of Elizabethan England are reliable indicators of current British international policy?

quote: History is one thing, but you really need to keep up with current events.

Care to mention what current events you are talking about, and how they are relevant?

quote: China is #4 as you say in economic power

Except I never said that. I said they were the USA's #4 trading partner.

quote: that's exactly how they want you to think, while secretly, silently gaining power, until it is too late to hinder their progress.

(sniff, sniff) Do I smell a conspiracist among us? Pardon me, I gotta go check under my bed to see if there's a BIG RED COMMIE hiding there!

quote: BTW, Russia was another country invaded repeatedly, France and Germany come to mind and look what they did to stop it from happening again.

Sorry, I'm just not following you here. The histories and current situations of the nations you mentioned don't seem to have a lot to do with that of China. Maybe you can clarify your point?

	12-08-2003 23:28									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Lord, I am only saying they are already our enemies, I am just pointing it out when people say, "heh! we can't invade Iraq because China will veto it". My point is, China was never on our side nor will they be, the article just makes the statement point blank. If they were to move on Twaiwan, then you bet we will get involved to the fullest capacity, I believe.

I disagree. If they were our enemies, then we should do everything possible to undermine their economy, incite conflicts between China and its neighbors, and provide active support for all its internal dissidents. The fact is that we had tried this approach for 3 decades, only to create a China that was far more militaristic and dangerous to us.

Through business dealings, we MAKE China's economy DEPENDENT on ours, we MAKE China's youth worshipping our junk food culture (McDonald is the favorite restaurant among Chinese youths), we MAKE China's elites by educating them in our universities, and we MAKE China's leadership see that their very survival depends on the well-being of the US.

This is a far better alternative than pushing China into the same boat with the Islamic Fundies and Anti-American Eurocommies.

	12-08-2003 23:30									#82
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH China's current crop of ICBM's are barely that. Hence, their inability to target more than the west coast. Of course with the technology that was transferred to the chinese military under the Clinton administration we've speeded up that process enormously.

I'm not willing to suffer the deaths of millions of Americans and economic disaster even it means destroying China once and for all.

	12-08-2003 23:30									#83
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OK, Lord, then if we believe the article and there is no real reason not to, why are they trying to undermine the USA?

	12-08-2003 23:37									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless I'm not willing to suffer the deaths of millions of Americans and economic disaster even it means destroying China once and for all.

And you figure my reply somehow implied that I was?

	12-08-2003 23:37									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant OK, Lord, then if we believe the article and there is no real reason not to, why are they trying to undermine the USA?

I don't see this as undermining the US. Space is a free for all business, just like the New World 500 years. If we don't take the initiative, somebody will eventually. I think it's good that China tries their shot at space because it will finally give Congress some incentives to get off their lame ass. After all, we are still decades ahead of China there.

As for espionage and etc, this is ongoing between all countries. We recently busted a Russian espionage ring, and they busted one of ours. I'm pretty sure US is still engaged low-level espionage activities against China. Hey, we are even doing that to France and Germany.

	12-08-2003 23:39									#86
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH And you figure my reply somehow implied that I was?

Your reply gives me impressions like that: Dude, they only got 30 nukes, but we have thousands! We are gonna kick their ass!

Maybe you didn't mean that, but many people apparently think ths way.

	12-08-2003 23:43									#87
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Here is the difference as I see it Lord. If the situation was reversed or China got ahead of us in advancement of weapons as we are to them, now, do you think China would move against Taiwan? I believe they would, and in doing so negate your argument of being non-aggressive, yes?

	12-08-2003 23:49									#88
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quote: China has shown no reluctance to involving itself militarily whenever and wherever it can.

The Spratleys are just one recent example of where they haven’t acted where they could've. Compare PRC military activity with that of the USA during the same period (post 1949), PRC's is at a far lower level. Certainly far less than "whenever and wherever it can".

quote: Try counting the number of high ranking military and secret police in the highest echelons of government and communist party.

Thank heavens they aren't running the show. BTW, nothing like all of the military thinks as you believe. The government here is nowhere near as monolithic as most westerners would have it. There are factions even within the military over strategic planning.

quote: quote: When you refer to China's history, are you talking about pre- or post-Mao? The entirety of chinese history shows the cultural/attitudinal differences between China and the West.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about history showing that China was not "our friend". My mis-reading.

	12-08-2003 23:56									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Here is the difference as I see it Lord. If the situation was reversed or China got ahead of us in advancement of weapons as we are to them, now, do you think China would move against Taiwan? I believe they would, and in doing so negate your argument of being non-aggressive, yes?

China has as much right to Taiwan as the US had to right to crush the Confederates.

If China is really as powerful as we are, I doubt our government would dare to meddle there in the first place.

But on the other hand, if China really can achieve our level of advancement, it wouldn't be very different from us both politically and economically, and Taiwan would be on all fours begging to be admitted to the "Greater China".

	12-08-2003 23:59									#90
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Sory, forgot this ...

quote: but China is clearly working toward developing ICBM's and becoming a military superpower.

As has been mentioned, China already has a nuclear force (since the 1960's) of about 30 aging warheads on ICBMs and a few on SLBMs. Not much of a credible first-strike weapon, and probably not even enough for deterrence (at least against the US).

China's military is still very far from being superpower caliber. It's getting better, but really, it's a land-based force, certainly hard to see as much of a credible threat to the US for the foreseeable future.

If you could see what a typical PLA soldier looks like, I suspect you might change your thinking about how implausible that threat is.

Besides all that, I want to ask: do you think it is unusual or suspicious for a great- or superpower to maintain a modern military?