16-08-2003 13:24									#31
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Debian Unstable just means it uses the same technologies as most other modern distros

With less testing and fixing than what goes into a normal "stable" release by red hat or mandy.

quote: Debian Stable still runs stuff like KDE 2.x, IIRC

Indeed, so run a mixture. Run stable as you basic system, updated with testing as needed, and run testing/unstable stuff on top of that. Its not ideal with security, but its better.

quote: Debian Unstable is very stable, and very secure as far as Linux distros go. Which isn't saying much

Wow!!! Your dislike is bordering on the obsessive!

quote: Certainly more secure and stable than Mandrake is

But mandrake is purty!!!

	16-08-2003 13:26									#32
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by elijah With less testing and fixing than what goes into a normal "stable" release by red hat or mandy.

Err. No.
I'm not going to get into this with you right now, but Debian Unstable is on par with RH/Mandy, only with a very competent package management system.

quote: Wow!!! Your dislike is bordering on the obsessive!

The more I use Linux, the more I hate it. There's so many inconsistencies, so many silly things, so many things that take 100 hoops to jump through which are easily done in Windows. I don't see any benefit to Linux aside from cost, and you get what you pay for.

	16-08-2003 13:29									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: The more I use Linux, the more I hate it. There's so many inconsistencies, so many silly things, so many things that take 100 hoops to jump through which are easily done in Windows. I don't see any benefit to Linux aside from cost, and you get what you pay for

rtfm. Perhaps join a lug, ask for help as there probably is a more direct method that you dont know of, at least thats what I found when I was actually making an effort *cough* to learn it. At this stage, Linux does not just work out of the box.

Stability... security? Exactly how many independent (not funded directly or indirectly by MS) tests have shown linux to be superior on those fronts?

quote: I'm not going to get into this with you right now, but Debian Unstable is on par with RH/Mandy

Testing is for sure, but not unstable.

	16-08-2003 13:33									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

If you hate it so much, why run it?

	16-08-2003 16:53									#35
	Re: Hackers operate GNU servers for five months Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Asher With the *nix trolls out in force about the MSBlast thing, I thought I'd give them a harsh reality check.

Eh, what's the point here?

The Blaster worm knocked off tens of thousands of Windows boxes. The Iloveyou virus (among others) infected tens of thousands of Windows boxes.

MS websites were cracked and owned. Once a cracker downloaded a copy of Windows XP and floated it around IIRC.

	16-08-2003 20:33									#36
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*nix has just as many security holes as MS. MS is just the company comp geeks love to hate hence it gets more attacks.

	16-08-2003 20:38									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I thought the whole point with open source systems was that, if there was a bug, you could be assured hundreds of geeks had a patch out in about 5 minutes?

This would make most worries about bugs on those systems irrelevant, yes?

	16-08-2003 22:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc *nix has just as many security holes as MS. MS is just the company comp geeks love to hate hence it gets more attacks.

They also hate it because they want to be different.

	16-08-2003 22:29									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by elijah If you hate it so much, why run it?

Need to run a *nix for school homework. Believe me, I'd ditch it if I could.

I haven't booted into that crapfest all summer though.

	16-08-2003 22:39									#41
	Remove this text

BLAST WORM!

	17-08-2003 00:01									#42
	Tired of ads?

If you successfully install gentoo, tell me how to, I been trying for days!

You seem to be generalising about linux users. When windows is the better tool, as is the case currently (for me), I use it. I hardly think the zealot-like stereotypes are either valid or useful.

	17-08-2003 00:02									#43
	Got spare money?

No, but if we didn't have stereotypes and a few people that conform to them, then neither side could have nearly as much fun trolling the other.

	17-08-2003 02:30									#44
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

To split some hairs, it wasn't servers, it was a server. Open-source software has always been quite vulnerable to the servers that the software is distributed from being attacked... *****X and OpenBSD come to mind pretty quickly, and I know there are more cases like this. I guess it's due to the lack of resources of most of the members of the community. I mean, this system was cracked by a local user. For all I know, Paul Visscher (gnu.org's chief webmaster) could have an evil half-sister who convinced him to take a week's trip - she would feed the cat. And then use the exploit to be able to pose as Paul and tell his mother that he really did steal that yellow alligator toy when he was five. Exploits like this don't really tell much about how secure the software itself is... they tell about how essential these nice things called signed SHA1 checksums are and how every self-respecting software developer should use them and how every user should check them lest the fate of destruction befalls both! Ahem. It is regrettable that the security of such an important server as this one got breached, and not as much work was done for security as possible... one can only hope that this will get people to grep their logs with more vigour. Or get someone to donate some money to the FSF so that they can hire someone to take care of their security, since the foundation's members are more concerned with just happily hacking away at their software than obsessively watching top and grepping logs...

elijah, I'm a Gentoo user, and have been one for a good while. If you have trouble installing it, the most painless thing to do right now would be to just stop trying. Gentoo is quite complicated and not terribly mature (Portage still sucks if not for any other reason but lacking proper handling of reverse dependencies), and you will need to use undocumented features and understand Portage internals to make any real use of the distro. The installation is, unlike the other parts, quite easy and well documented. But in the case you do still happen to want to use it... the forums are your friend. Especially the forum search. Remember, no question is worth answering more than once.

Oh, and see my signature .

	17-08-2003 03:15									#45
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thanks Ari!!

MtG: I'll spare the comments about people being so dumb they need a mouse to write a document

	17-08-2003 05:42									#46
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And I'll spare the comments about people being so dumb they don't understand why most people prefer a mouse and graphical interface to commands like:

code:
tar -xvf dfhs-204.123-42-build321-alpha.tar.gz | more readme.txt

Last edited by Asher on 17-08-2003 at 05:53

	17-08-2003 05:50									#47
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by elijah rtfm. Perhaps join a lug, ask for help as there probably is a more direct method that you dont know of, at least thats what I found when I was actually making an effort *cough* to learn it. At this stage, Linux does not just work out of the box.

That's gotta be the most unrealistic expectation of the common consumer that I have ever seen. And it just illustrates the 100 hoops he was talking about.

rtfm is THE worst answer you can give someone on a tech forum, much less someone who is mainstream.

Also what Asher just said.

	17-08-2003 10:24									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Shatter Attacks - How to break Windows.

This paper presents a new generation of attacks against Microsoft Windows, and possibly other message-based windowing systems. The flaws presented in this paper are, at the time of writing, unfixable. The only reliable solution to these attacks requires functionality that is not present in Windows, as well as efforts on the part of every single Windows software vendor. Microsoft has known about these flaws for some time; when I alerted them to this attack, their response was that they do not class it as a flaw - the email can be found here

This research was sparked by comments made by Microsoft VP Jim Allchin who stated, under oath, that there were flaws in Windows so great that they would threaten national security if the Windows source code were to be disclosed. He mentioned Message Queueing, and immediately regretted it. However, given the quantity of research currently taking place around the world after Mr Allchin's comments, it is about time the white hat community saw what is actually possible.

	17-08-2003 10:37									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Post of the day:

quote: I just watched SCP crash a production Linux server An 'scp' of a 400 meg file across a 100mbit ethernet segment corrupted the filesystem. The kernel panicked and the destination machine froze. A complete reboot to single user made and manual fsck was necessary to recover. Utterly pathetic. Now watch the gears churn as the l33t l1nux h4x0rs begin their excuses. I'll be accused of making it up; but its never necessary to exaggerate or fabricate useless Linux behavior. All you have to do is run it in a production environment. The l33t posters here don't realize the PC toy in their parents basement isn't a production environment. THe next line will be something like "What an idiot EVERYONE knows you can't use kernel [whatever kernel number was used] with io driver [whatever, yawn] for brand [any brand] drives built at plant [X] between May and June 2003 unless you install Bob's unwarrantied undocumented driver hack and my friend Fred's OpenSSH mod. You see how great disorganized open source is? It makes it seventy times more complicated to do the same thing as planned OS!" Again complete clueless missing of the point. It is exactly this kind of dependancy hell that makes Linux completely unsuitable for real world production use. There will be few posts like this because 99% of the Linux posters here aren't technically competant, they merely parrot Linux slogans and mantras they have picked up somewhere. They are in fact quite as clueless as the Windows users they habitually insult. For the rest of the world, take careful note: a file copy brought down a Linux 'server'. The lus3rs posting here yammering about how unreliable Windows is do not have an accurate grasp of the reality of the rather pathetic 'cause' they've decided to devote their lives to.

http://www.linuxsucks.org/read.html...=4294&replies=5

	17-08-2003 12:09									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

blackice, we've already had a thread about that: It's an argument about authenticating windows using Win32. Which as you should know, is deprecated and obsolete.

	17-08-2003 12:25									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher And I'll spare the comments about people being so dumb they don't understand why most people prefer a mouse and graphical interface to commands like: code: tar -xvf dfhs-204.123-42-build321-alpha.tar.gz | more readme.txt

Hey, if you want to criticise an interface, you could at least make it clear that you know it ...

code:
tar -xzOf dfhs-204.123-42-build321-alpha.tar.gz dfhs-204.123-42-build321-alpha/README|more

That's the command that would most probably do that you wanted .

quote: 00:38 <@Arkonviox> unix is a mess 00:38 <+Moduvator> lol 00:38 * Ankou cries 00:38 <+ari> I packed a couple of directories yesterday by telling my computer to "find -type d|xargs tar -cjvvf Brin-books.tar.bz2" 00:38 <+Moduvator> Here we go... 00:38 < vantid> uhhhh 00:38 <+ari> So that's how bad Unix is 00:38 <+Ankou> maybe I should just stick with windows 00:38 < vantid> i cant handle this kind of conversation 00:38 -!- Arkonviox [~Arkonviox@12-233-157-160.client.attbi.com] has quit [Local kill by Dolphin (This is here you die.)] 00:38 * vantid laughs 00:38 -!- Arkonviox [~Arkonviox@12-233-157-160.client.attbi.com] has joined #DarkSeas 00:38 -!- mode/#darkseas [+o Arkonviox] by ChanServ 00:38 <+Moduvator> By My Fins...| 00:38 <+Ankou> They killed Kenny 00:38 <+Ankou> or whatever 00:38 < vantid> again 00:38 <@Arkonviox> i stand by what i say 00:39 <+ari> Now I'm going to set an alarm bell with "sleep 8h; yes xkbbell|/bin/sh" 00:39 <+Ankou> ari: I'm scared enough

	17-08-2003 16:57									#52
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Post of the day:

I have seen Windows servers died on far less.

Sometimes they commit suicide.

	17-08-2003 17:00									#53
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Asher And I'll spare the comments about people being so dumb they don't understand why most people prefer a mouse and graphical interface to commands like:

Do you realise that you can move around the Windows desktop quicker with the keyboard than with a mouse?

	17-08-2003 17:28									#54
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The other reason I use Linux: Viewports.
They are the best thing since sliced bread.
No windows box I have ever seen had them.
I know of two window managers that have them, Enlightenment and Sawfish.
Anyone who is confused by viewports must have serious problems in the spatial manipulation area of their brain.

	17-08-2003 18:06									#55
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Viewports? Do you mean virtual desktops (which, as Asher has said approximately one divided by epsilon times, are included in Power Toys)? Viewports are areas of sight of some larger area and can be moved around. For example, you can set Eterm's background to be in viewport mode - this is cool but not useful. And if you set your X server's resolution higher than your screen's, moving the mouse cursor to the edge of the screen will scroll the area in view. Which is pretty damn frustrating and, I believe, useless for most purposes.

BTW, evilwm has virtual desktops, too. As does kwm (KDE's window manager), IceWM, Metacity... well, I'm not sure about Metacity... but pretty much any X11 window manager, anyway.

Last edited by Ari Rahikkala on 17-08-2003 at 18:15

	18-08-2003 00:25									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by geeslaka The other reason I use Linux: Viewports. They are the best thing since sliced bread. No windows box I have ever seen had them. I know of two window managers that have them, Enlightenment and Sawfish. Anyone who is confused by viewports must have serious problems in the spatial manipulation area of their brain.

Gee, I wish I could have viewports (which are called "virtual desktops" by most) in Windows.

Oh, wait, I can. With a free MS download, too.

UR: That may be the case for you, but I can click on form fields far faster by clicking on them rather than tabbing through them, unless I'm entering in data sequentially. I use a hybrid keyboard/mouse.

I still fail to see your point, if you have one at all, because Windows allows you to do them both ways...