 |
| |
|
|
JCG
|
 |
between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:30
|
|
Berzerker -
quote:
And this is a reason to punish sick people who use pot for it's medicinal properties? Btw, I don't own a gun but I support the right of others to own them, does that mean my support for gun rights is dis-ingenuous? |
No, I wouldn't see it as really "punishing" anyone, considering there are alternatives available if they need to reduce their pain (and they will live or die all the same regardless).
But anyways, don't forget that I support legalization too, just through a rather different approach, so there's little need to argue. I just don't see it as "essential" for its medical properties (or any other properties), but wouldn't oppose its use nevertheless, I'd respect that right.
quote:
Me neither, I guess I'm not as "eager" as you presume. |
Good. Still, I wasn't speaking about you in particular as far as eagerness goes, just making a general statement on the thread posters.
quote:
I'd like to if y'all can learn the meaning of "keep your hands to yourself and mind your own business". |
Oh I do, just voicing my opinion on a public forum here, nothing more, nothing less...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
 |
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:30
|
|
JGC - quote:
No, I wouldn't see it as really "punishing" anyone, considering there are alternatives available if they need to reduce their pain (and they will live or die all the same regardless). |
You don't think throwing sick people in cages for using the medicine of their choice is punishment? It doesn't matter if there are alternatives, freedom is not you deciding which alternatives we should be allowed to choose from.
quote:
But anyways, don't forget that I support legalization too, just through a rather different approach, so there's little need to argue. I just don't see it as "essential" for its medical properties (or any other properties), but wouldn't oppose its use nevertheless, I'd respect that right. |
Whether or not it is "essential" is for each person to decide. If I had AIDS and couldn't sustain my appetite, I would consider pot essential. If I was going thru chemo and pot was the cheapest way for me to suppress nausea, then it's no one else's business. Strangelove is a "doctor" and cites the hypocratic oath from time to time, but he wants sick people punished for not choosing the medicines he thinks they should use. 
quote:
Good. Still, I wasn't speaking about you in particular as far as eagerness goes, just making a general statement on the thread posters. |
And I was showing why your generalisation is invalid.
quote:
Oh I do, just voicing my opinion on a public forum here, nothing more, nothing less... |
An opinion about what medicines others should be allowed to use.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
JCG
|
|
between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:30
|
|
Berzerker:
1)Throwing them in jail IS punishment. However, just restricting/not actively recommending pot in prescriptions UNLESS it is absolutely necessary (which usually isn't) isn't punishment. I don't support the former, but agree with the later.
2)That doesn't mean that you can't ask/push/force a doctor into giving you such a prescription, you can if it's legal were you are.
I just don't see why people need the absolute right to "self-prescribe" pot for themselves without a doctor's proper analysis and advice (which may or may not agree with its use).
3)Considering I said "some" of the other posters, and a couple still "seem" to be like that (they could be joking or not, of course), it's still partially valid (which is all it was ever meant to be).
4)An opinion about what substances should be freely available as medicines or not, considering their "dual" uses (for lack of a better term) and the existence of alternatives.
Get a doctor's serious recommendation that you must absolutely use it, and you can get all the pot you want/need. If you don't get it, see another doctor or do something else.
In this particular case, I just see the duty and professional opinion of the doctor (considering what I said above) as more important than the absolute right of the patient which you seem to so vehemently defend.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DanielXY
|
|
Germany
Dec 2002
time: 05:30
|
|
quote:
Clinical studies show that smoking marijuana worsens depression, anxiety disorders and schizophrenia. |
You got a source for that?
Meanwhile I stay with this:
"In conclusion, our meta-analysis of studies that have attempted to address the question of longer term neurocognitive disturbance in moderate and heavy cannabis users has failed to demonstrate a substantial, systematic, and detrimental effect of cannabis use on neuropsychological performance. It was surprising to find such few and small effects given that most of the potential biases inherent in our analyses actually increased the likelihood of finding a cannabis effect."
Source: Grant, Igor, et al., "Non-Acute (Residual) Neurocognitive Effects Of Cannabis Use: A Meta-Analytic Study," Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society (Cambridge University Press: July 2003), 9, p. 687.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Umm...Strangelove failed to put the word "can" in there, just as I'm sure pot "can" decrease depression, etc... |
So you're resorting to putting words into my mouth now? I meant exactly what I said.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
The Templar
|
 |
People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:30
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
If your primary concern is for the health of sick people why don't we see more support from you or NORMAL for Marinol, which according to Dr. Strangelove has actually been proven to relieve nausea better than THC? |
As I noted above, any ingested form of pot will not assist patients suffering severe nausea. Then again, for medicinal purposes, I'm not wild about smoking it. Some sort of aerosol variation is in order (at the same cost as weed or weed available as a low cost alternative).
But other than that, I'm more interested in what doctors have to say as opposed to drug warriors. So let there be tests run by the medical community. That will, I think, be definitive.
Having said that, I do believe pot should be legal because people have a right to get high, stoned, drunk, four to the floor, etc. without the goddamned morality police attempting to impose sobriety. If you don't like pot, you don't have to smoke it (and smoking it should be banned in bars, restauraunts, and the usual places where smoking is banned).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Berzerker
|
|
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:30
|
|
JCG - quote:
1)Throwing them in jail IS punishment. However, just restricting/not actively recommending pot in prescriptions UNLESS it is absolutely necessary (which usually isn't) isn't punishment. I don't support the former, but agree with the later. |
And just how do you plan on "restricting" people from using pot? "Punishment"?
quote:
I just don't see why people need the absolute right to "self-prescribe" pot for themselves without a doctor's proper analysis and advice (which may or may not agree with its use). |
It's called freedom, if you don't own yourself, you don't own anything. And as I have pointed out, and as the evidence shows, doctors can be, and often are, coerced into making decisions based not on what's best for their patients but based on what government bureaucrats will do to them. There are many doctors who specialise in pain management who are leaving that specialty because they are worried about bureaucrats going after them for prescribing "too much" narcotics and there have been a number of cases of patients in pain who've committed suicide because their doctor stopped prescribing the narcotics they needed to relieve the pain.
quote:
3)Considering I said "some" of the other posters, and a couple still "seem" to be like that (they could be joking or not, of course), it's still partially valid (which is all it was ever meant to be). |
That's the problem with generalisations, at best they are only "partially" valid. Racism is based on generalisations which are also "partially" valid.
quote:
Get a doctor's serious recommendation that you must absolutely use it, and you can get all the pot you want/need. If you don't get it, see another doctor or do something else. |
Why? Do doctors own us?
quote:
In this particular case, I just see the duty and professional opinion of the doctor (considering what I said above) as more important than the absolute right of the patient which you seem to so vehemently defend. |
You mean doctors have an absolute right to make our decisions? Where did this right come from?
Dinodoc - quote:
If your primary concern is for the health of sick people why don't we see more support from you or NORMAL for Marinol, which according to Dr. Strangelove has actually been proven to relieve nausea better than THC? |
Marinol is legal, why would it need NORML's support? And Strangelove's opinion is not more valid than the opinions of people who actually suffer from nausea.
Strangelove - quote:
So you're resorting to putting words into my mouth now? I meant exactly what I said. |
How did you get thru medical school with such a poor ability to reason? I didn't put any words in your mouth, I said you failed to add the word "can" in your statement and you did.
Not adding that word requires us to believe pot always worsens depression, etc., and that is a ridiculous proposition. Oh, you didn't respond to this from Daniel:
"In conclusion, our meta-analysis of studies that have attempted to address the question of longer term neurocognitive disturbance in moderate and heavy cannabis users has failed to demonstrate a substantial, systematic, and detrimental effect of cannabis use on neuropsychological performance. It was surprising to find such few and small effects given that most of the potential biases inherent in our analyses actually increased the likelihood of finding a cannabis effect."
Source: Grant, Igor, et al., "Non-Acute (Residual) Neurocognitive Effects Of Cannabis Use: A Meta-Analytic Study," Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society (Cambridge University Press: July 2003), 9, p. 687.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
LoneWolf
|
|
Oh, yeah, I think we all know how much these pot- pushers are interested in "medical marijuana". Pshh.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
yah
I know all the people who have completely ****ed themselves up with drugs sure seem to be gifted from
God
the only people who don't get seriously ****ed with drugs are those that back off the drug use
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
takes different ammounts of time for different people
some people it is the first use, others can go a long time
I have never seen an old heavy drug user who wasn't ****ed
and I was going against drugs in general being a gift drom god, not some specific drug (since that is what you seemed to be implying)
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DanielXY
|
|
Germany
Dec 2002
time: 05:30
|
|
You havent seen one, because those ppl. dont stick out. They look normal. Thats the whole point of being not ****ed up.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
JCG -
Strangelove -
How did you get thru medical school with such a poor ability to reason? I didn't put any words in your mouth, I said you failed to add the word "can" in your statement and you did.
Not adding that word requires us to believe pot always worsens depression, etc., and that is a ridiculous proposition. Oh, you didn't respond to this from Daniel: |
No, I meant what I said. Now please stop putting words in my mouth. quote:
"In conclusion, our meta-analysis of studies that have attempted to address the question of longer term neurocognitive disturbance in moderate and heavy cannabis users has failed to demonstrate a substantial, systematic, and detrimental effect of cannabis use on neuropsychological performance. It was surprising to find such few and small effects given that most of the potential biases inherent in our analyses actually increased the likelihood of finding a cannabis effect."
Source: Grant, Igor, et al., "Non-Acute (Residual) Neurocognitive Effects Of Cannabis Use: A Meta-Analytic Study," Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society (Cambridge University Press: July 2003), 9, p. 687. |
I read that one some time back. The studies analysed used a test called "The Mini-Mental Status Exam" a very crude tool used primarily in Emergency Rooms to determine if patients suffer from delerium. The test consists of items like being able to remember the date and time, the city you're in, the name of the clinic, identifying a pen and a watch, remembering three articles pointed out in the room, spelling the word "world" backwards, writing one simple sentence, and pronouncing the phrase "no ifs ands or buts". In short, it's a very crude instrument used as an objective measure to identify people with fairly major brain dysfunction. You'd have to be ready to be placed in a nursing home to fail it.
Last edited by Dr Strangelove on 21-08-2003 at 17:08
|
|
| |
|
|
|
LoneWolf
|
|
Hey, can I help that millions of people are stupid? Take another toke, pot-head. Its cool.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Jon -
Which refutes your claim that long time users are all ****ed up.
|
long time is not very exact of course
you did 8 more years than anyone I know personally
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:30.
Apolyton Time is 00:30. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
19-08-2003 09:51
Then Jesus shouldn't have turned all that water into wine for a bunch of people getting drunk at that wedding at Cana. But Jesus was accused of "defiling" the bodily temple of God, and his response? It is not what a man puts in his mouth that defiles him, but what comes from a man's mouth, this defiles him. Meaning the words and thoughts that precede immoral acts... Many cultures believe drugs were a gift from God...
... anyway, there's a local drug cult there, and the leader of the community is the only one with access to the drug and he dispenses it on special occasions....
|