24-08-2003 00:11									#31
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Ahhh, I nearly forgot to mention....I gave considerable thought to the underlying purpose OF that post, and the real target is Lego/Vox, although it is addressed to GoW/ND, on the thinking that perhaps it will cause them to re-evaluate their own reactions and responses. Clearly, the other two have already decided, and as we are fighting right now, "death to the strat guys" and "the game at hand" amount to the same thing. Their purposes have in effect, intersected with prevailing game events.

Not so yet with Lego and Vox, however....so if a measure of guilt (or something like it) can be used as a means to temper their actions....

-=Vel=-

	24-08-2003 00:20									#32
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great job on the spite message, succinctly cuts through the bs we've faced the entire game, nice work.

	24-08-2003 00:27									#33
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Thanks man....and I shall go right on cutting through the BS.....they have propaganda. We shall have truth, and it shall put them to shame.....

-=Vel=-

	24-08-2003 06:09									#34
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I'm back, and caught up.

Two things occur to me:

1) Vel, man, you never let me down!! Holy cr*p, I think you overloaded their circuits! Sorta like Norman in the original Star Trek.

Methinks the StormHawk Party is ready for another appearance.

2) We gotta heck of a war goin' on... but when's the shooting start?

	24-08-2003 08:37									#35
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Thank you Theseus! I'm....doin' what I can....liked your idea about unleashing hell on them, btw....I say we do both....at least make some forrays in the south to focus their attention there, while building for a MUCH bigger surprise later?

-=Vel=-

	24-08-2003 18:42									#36
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I'm into messin' with them in the south, although I continue to think that forcing them to move across the entire arc has value, especially in terms of wasting the 3-move advantage.

I'd like to trick them into *continuing* to over commit in the south, and then cut them to pieces.

	24-08-2003 19:07									#37
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An excellent plan! What say you to the notion of grabbing V and then making noise like we're about to extend that operation....prompting a further reinforcement of the south?

A question here: Do we have sufficient force to hold all our cities if we add V to the fold?

-=Vel=-

	24-08-2003 19:08									#38
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...cos if not, then I propose that we simply mass at the ridgeline NE of V and make it LOOK like we're prepping an attack....then, if something unexpected happens to US, we can pull back and relocate troopages!

-=Vel=-

	24-08-2003 19:35									#39
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As to Pamplona....so long as RP keeps the bulk of her forces there (~29 units and growing....I'm assuming they're building additional troops, or a barracks if there's not already one there), I think it will be the Anvil upon which ND breaks themselves. Fortified troops in the city and a lot of them....ND will be hard pressed to crack that, and it will keep a largish portion of their force tied down right there...which is good. Frees us up to do other nasty things....

-=Vel=-

	25-08-2003 02:23									#40
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The problem with waiting in the South...

Pamplona could fall to combined attack from Leon and Salamanca. I am sure that Pamplona could stand to ND, but throw in GoWs 11 riders and...

	25-08-2003 02:31									#41
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Hmmm....that's a good point, NYE....and I don't think we should wait long in the south....the initial thrust into V will happen pretty quickly, but after that, there may or may not be a pause to the next target, depending on resistence encountered, disposition of their forces, and such. If we ambush and kill a bunch, hey! We can just sweep the area and have done with it....if not, it'll be much more cat-and-mouse.

I think tho, that Pamplona is....at least fairly safe from the double team.

I doubt if either of the allies want to sacrifice a significant portion of their combat ability on a singluar target, only to let the other get the prize, and I think that will stave off any massive attack....besides, if they did manage to take Pamplona, they'd be so shattered in the effort that we could ease right in after them, which would put them in a pickle....two big stacks gone, no prize at all, and GS gaining another city on Bob....

-=Vel=-

	25-08-2003 02:33									#42
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I agree with NYE- I also we should take out S before commit most of our forces to anything else- who knows, 10 turns from now, we might get the idea that Z and around are open for an attack- moving our front from P to Z won't mean overextension of our defense, and if, for example, ND attack like madmen with all they have, and RP and us feel like we could get some cities back without serious risk, I think we should have the ability to. With S in GoW's hands, we can't.

Btw- its just 9 (perhaps 7-8), two of them ran up north (but perhaps they could me from around).

	25-08-2003 03:57									#43
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True enough... P is under threat. However, we can assess that risk better when we attack Valencia, and nobody says we can't bring some troops closer to Salamanca (preferably from the North). The thing is, can we manage with what we have right now (possibly with whatever we can upgrade with our current gold reserves, we still have some WCs left that could be shipped as knights to RP), and save all the rest for an invasion up North?

The reason why I would prefer attacking the North before the South is secure is that it is not the most obvious thing to do. Of course, it holds a bit more risk, but if we want to avoid having a long-winded slug fest in the South, away from GoW's production core we need to act soon. Plus, it holds more risk to RP, but not overly so: we still are relatively able to hold onto their other cities (once we have good defenses in place), so in case P would fall, they are not lost completely.

But I agree, it is a risk... and sorry to say it, but the only good thing about that risk is that is more a risk to RP then it is to us. The gains can profit both, though, with GoW's core damaged we could indeed have a shot at conquering Bob, and dividing it between RP and ourselves. Otherwise our chances are slim, we're fending off 2 teams here, while RP has no real production left.

DeepO

	25-08-2003 03:57									#44
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The 2 are near Pamplona. They can be counted in the assault for 11 GoW riders.

	25-08-2003 03:59									#45
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in short... it might be a bold thing to do, but if they don't suspect it, it might hold the most profits... going for the South first will be safer, but will take a lot longer to perform, if we even could get there in the end (which is not certain by far)

DeepO

	25-08-2003 04:00									#46
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oh, nye, those 2 will probably be in Salamanca by now... they could reach it if they went for it. So yes, 11 at most. Quite a force

DeepO

	26-08-2003 05:38									#47
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Badams' post was music to my ears! It would appear that our diplomatic offensive is having an effect!!

-=Vel=-

	26-08-2003 13:51									#48
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Haven't seen the latest yet, but Vel, aren't you starting to feel the pain of posting in public too? It seems like the fire is out of your posts, which I understand fully. Yesterday I wanted to reply to Vondrack (as he is one of the few people who really matter in this conversation, together with the other Legos and Voxian), but decided otherwise... I don't want to get involved in that battlezone again.

They've got a point though: saving RP is not really a honorable thing for us to do, it is propaganda. We didn't entered this war to save RP, we did it to keep ND and GoW from gaining too much. The honor part lays in us trying to not break any deals...

DeepO

	26-08-2003 13:57									#49
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Exactly.
I don't think there's any point in claiming that we had any ulterior motives when we came to RP's help (particularly because AFAIK we hadn't, and I'd like to stick to the truth, all the truth (at least the unclassified parts) and nothing but the truth).
Everyone knows that we act according to what we think is our best interest, excluding special cases. The repulsion from the idea of gang-banging RP that some of us have expressed certainly played a part in our ultimate decision, but not a major one IMHO.

	26-08-2003 14:11									#50
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well, as nye said, there has been discussion about not joining gangrape, but it was a minor advantage... RP has truely pissed us off beforehand (I wonder why, BTW. GoW has done us much more wrong in game, and we're looked upon more favorably then RP). If it was e.g. ND under attack from 2 nations, we would not had the same difficult decission to make, we would not even consider siding against them

DeepO

	26-08-2003 15:16									#51
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RP annoyed us (AFAIK) more than GoW even though it was GoW that screwed us the most because RP were more arrogant about it. GoW were more like "hey, we're mercenaries so we can do that" and we went along with it, but RP had to blow it in people's faces.
And of course there was Togas's fake role-played piety which we may have taken too seriously (as have other people, including UnOrthOdOx).
Oh, and there was also that thing between Togas and NYE. And then that chat log... (bleah!) but Togas has already given a lengthy public apology and said several things that must have taken either a lot of guts and maturity, or a lot of pressure from thoughts bottled-up, or both, to express in public.

But RP is so much easier to cooperate with than GoW. They may have been over-complacent in their position before the Bobian war, but they did their thinking tand learned the lessons. GoW have been hot-heads since the beginning of the game and don't show any signs of improving.

Last edited by Shiber on 26-08-2003 at 16:02

	26-08-2003 18:09									#52
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Nahhh, I'm not really experiencing too much pain in posting in the public eye....I have been shifting gears and tactics as I read the audience, and have discovered just how vast the gulf is between us....but we'll close that gap....we will....

-=Vel=-

	27-08-2003 01:06									#54
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By the way....can someone tell me a bit of trivia? What I would like to know is:

Are there any citizens with our own culture living on Bob right now?

What I mean is....do we have any Stormian citizens who were born, and are natives of Bob? I got a plan....

-=Vel=-

	27-08-2003 01:13									#55
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And by the way....we NEED that (the above)....we need to keep at least one Spanish city until it grows by one, and gives us a population point bearing our own culture ON Bob...if we don't have it already, can someone keep me posted and let me know when we do? I will, with that population point and blessed event, give our presence there legitimacy....

-=Vel=-

	27-08-2003 01:23									#56
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Vel,

As of now, the nationality of the citizens in RP's cities are switching back and forth, due to the way city gifting works.

If you gift a city, the nationality of the citizens automatically switches over to the receiving civ. Thus, while we control RP's cities, they are filled with GS citizens. When we give 'em back, they are filled with RP's citizens.

HOWEVER, we did build our own city over there - Sircocco. Size 1, last I saw. Coastal, 3-3 of New Madrid, IIRC.

-Arrian

	27-08-2003 01:25									#57
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Damn! Well, that's okay...if we have built a city over there, then as soon as it hits size two, we'll have a native-born Bobian with our culture....and THAT is the magic bullet.

That is the thing which gives us the legitimacy to remain forever on Bob...to protect the native-born members of that land's population who share our cultural heritage....

-=Vel=-

	27-08-2003 01:37									#58
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More propoganda, Vel? Feel free, but you know as well as I that no one is gonna buy that.

-Arrian

	27-08-2003 01:40									#59
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Doesn't matter if the teams don't buy it...history is on our side there...lots of historical prescedent to draw from, and we can win points in the general forums by calling for a cessation of the crusade to kick us off Bob, on the day that we get our native born pop point....

-=Vel=-

	27-08-2003 01:46									#60
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Nah, they can just counter by saying that pop point is a "colonist" sent by the Imperialist GS. Sure, that's BS too, but it's all BS, no?

I think we're fine on the propoganda front for now, and I'd prefer we apply ourselves to working out exactly how we're going to turn the tide in the war.

But if you must, you must.

-Arrian