31-08-2003 22:38									#31
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Bods:

Elijah, Berzerker, Rufus, etc.:

	01-09-2003 01:18									#32
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I think this will be another lost generation of bitter war veterans. Not as bad as Vietnam, but bad enough. When they grow older many veterans will look back and ask themselves: Was this really worth it? And just think of the 1000's of traumatized soldiers who will have nighmares for the rest of their life from incidents where they were too jumpy and killed civilans who didn't understand English.

	01-09-2003 01:20									#33
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Edited by Ming...


Edited again by Ming... Since you didn't take the first warning seriously... see you 24 hours.
And I don't recommend you edit a post AFTER a mod has edited it.

Last edited by Ming on 01-09-2003 at 02:31

	01-09-2003 02:00									#34
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What, did Diss take my joke or something?

	01-09-2003 02:03									#35
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Gotta have a joke before someone can take it.

	01-09-2003 02:12									#36
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Of course Bodds is right. People who "support the troops" actually do not support the troops, but do everything in their power to undermine them. In the US, mostly this kind of statement comes from the anti-American branch of US politics. But some Republicans also said it when Clinton was using our troops in Kosovo. When I heard this from people I normally respected, it made me gag.

I have no respect for anyone who says they "support our troops" but oppose the war. They are mendacious.

	01-09-2003 02:15									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I don't think that it's possible to love your country and hate your government. The nation is usually an explicit creation of the government, aimed at keeping power. Is it possible to hate your country and love your government?

yes it is possible

I love the nation of the United States. I love the land it sits on. I love the model of goverment provided by the founding fathers. We once had a great nation (except for the slavery and racism bit )

	01-09-2003 02:18									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Of course Bodds is right. People who "support the troops" actually do not support the troops, but do everything in their power to undermine them. In the US, mostly this kind of statement comes from the anti-American branch of US politics. But some Republicans also said it when Clinton was using our troops in Kosovo. When I heard this from people I normally respected, it made me gag. I have no respect for anyone who says they "support our troops" but oppose the war. They are mendacious.

Great that you think you're a mindreader, but this is tripe.

Explain to me why I can't both be opposed to the war but also hope that once our troops are committed to battle, they get home safely with as few casualties as possible. That's what "supporting our troops" means--hoping they don't get killed.

If you go about accusing anti-war folks of wanting harm to come to our troops, I think you need to reexamine who you think is being "mendacious" (nice way of calling people who don't agree with you liars).

	01-09-2003 02:24									#39
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Let's see:

People who think that wanting your country's soldiers to die and opposing their use in a certain war are equivalent: Ned and Boddingtons

People who don't: everybody else

Hmmm. Get a couple more of the usual suspects in here and this could easily be considered a test for idiocy.

	01-09-2003 02:27									#40
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I'm sure Fez would agree with them, yes.

	01-09-2003 02:31									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I have no respect for anyone who says they "support our troops" but oppose the war. They are mendacious.

Good thing I don't want your respect.

I support the troops, and by that I mean:

(1) Give them a big pay raise - pay them what they actually deserve. How about $80k/yr to start. This would make the military a competitive employer, selecting only the smartest and toughest.

(2) Give them better benefits. Expand the GI Bill for school (you know, so it could cover 4 years at Tulane or Harvard). Eliminate the Academy system for creating officers. (Who the **** cares if your local Rep. will nominate you after you work on his election campaign.) Get officers from among those capable who serve first in the ranks. Send them to the academy. This should foster and retain career-minded individuals who are capable.

(3) Quit sending them into stupid wars to die for Haliburton's profits.

You know what? That's the kind of support our troops actually want. I guarantee troops will prefer my kind of support to the nimrod on the corner with the big sign that reads 'support the troops'.

	01-09-2003 02:33									#42
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Considering most of the troops I have spoken to lately, and their families, are angry over the Iraq war now, I'd say they'd like my kind of support better than that of Ned or Bodds.

People who supported the war obviously wanted to see our boys butchered daily in Baghdad. Monsters.

	01-09-2003 02:35									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov People who supported the war obviously wanted to see our boys butchered daily in Baghdad. Monsters.

I love counter trolls.

	01-09-2003 02:36									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Considering most of the troops I have spoken to lately, and their families, are angry over the Iraq war now, I'd say they'd like my kind of support better than that of Ned or Bodds. People who supported the war obviously wanted to see our boys butchered daily in Baghdad. Monsters.

And they are cheapskates who try to cut VA benefits when nobody is looking.

Why does George Bush hate America so?

	01-09-2003 02:39									#46
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Clearly, anybody who supports George Bush is a traitor who hates America and wants to see the blood of our troops spread over the desert.

Gee, this is kinda fun. Now I see with the right-wingers do it.

	01-09-2003 03:40									#47
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Republicans are of the most evil that have EVER walked the Earth

Ned? Are you listening?

	01-09-2003 03:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Clearly, anybody who supports George Bush is a traitor who hates America and wants to see the blood of our troops spread over the desert. Gee, this is kinda fun. Now I see with the right-wingers do it.

NOW WE'RE TALKIN'!!! Beating the neo-cons at thier own populist game.

Impeach Bush!!!

	01-09-2003 03:42									#49
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Ned's in Flanders.

Saddam Hussein == The Italian Job == The Brazilian Job + Mickey Mouse

	01-09-2003 03:52									#50
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Hmmm, A Brazilian job... Is that kind of like a blow job?

	01-09-2003 04:07									#51
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Well, BG and other anti-American types, I remember what "supporting the troops" meant in Korean and Vietnam where politics intruded too much into the conduct of the war. The half war that resulted in both cases only lead to tens of thousands of GIs KIA.

IMHO, we should never commit troops to combat with a clear vision of victory. We should do everything in our power to win in the shortest possilble time and with the fewest casualties on both sides.

"Supporting the troops" has become a euphenism for politicizing the war effort for the pupose of hamstringing it, changing its goals, or defeating it altogether. Regardless, all this does is encourage the enemy to not surrender or negotiate peace thinking that all they have to do is wait out it out until the anti-war types get enough votes. This ends up killing our troops - in the tens of thousands in Vietnam and Korea.

	01-09-2003 04:13									#52
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Remember that people - pacificism kills.

	01-09-2003 04:21									#53
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Well, Ned and other pro-death-to-soldiers types, you still seem to be forgetting that our side = fewer soldier deaths.

You see, you got what you wanted, which was the war. Now we've seen hundreds of American G.I.s killed. Had we gotten our way, no war, those G.I.s would still be alive, not to mention the thousands upon thousands of Iraqis who died in the war or as a consequence.

I'm sure you'll whitewash your complicity in the murder of our soldiers by proclaiming them heroes, but that won't fill and empty chair at Thanksgiving, make up for one less stocking on the mantle at Christmas, nor comfort a little child whose father isn't going to come home ever again. Your way killed her father. My way would have kept him alive.

How you sleep at night with the blood of our soldiers on your conscience, I'll never know.

	01-09-2003 04:30									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How you sleep at night with the blood of our soldiers on your conscience, I'll never know.

They have bloodied themselves in a blood that shall stain their souls for all eternity.

	01-09-2003 04:33									#55
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Ned, admit it, you're beat

	01-09-2003 04:37									#56
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Ned, admit it, you're beat

Never!

	01-09-2003 04:41									#57
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To be honest, I'm still not sure how exactly Saddam would have been able to hurt us if we let him be. Yeah, so he was researching weapons of mass destruction. So what? He didn't have missiles with the kind of range needed to hit the American continent, did he? Without a reliable means of deploying it, there wasn't much he could do to hurt us with it. Maybe if he mailed it like the unabomber did, and hoped to god that everybody would be stupid enough to let it through customs...I'm not jumping on the Bush-is-a-slave-to-corporate-America bandwagon, but if he hadn't started the war there probably wouldn't be any loss of life on our side at all. He may have some reason, but if the war saved American lives I don't see how.

	01-09-2003 04:41									#58
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WWII was a success in large measure because we did not have anti-war types "supporting our troops." When a country is fully behind the war effort, it is more easily winnable, minimizing casualties, etc. Trying to defeat a war effort while the war is on is not "supporting our troops."

	01-09-2003 04:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Elok To be honest, I'm still not sure how exactly Saddam would have been able to hurt us if we let him be. Yeah, so he was researching weapons of mass destruction. So what? He didn't have missiles with the kind of range needed to hit the American continent, did he? Without a reliable means of deploying it, there wasn't much he could do to hurt us with it. Maybe if he mailed it like the unabomber did, and hoped to god that everybody would be stupid enough to let it through customs...I'm not jumping on the Bush-is-a-slave-to-corporate-America bandwagon, but if he hadn't started the war there probably wouldn't be any loss of life on our side at all. He may have some reason, but if the war saved American lives I don't see how.

I think Saddam was a long term threat to the region and thus to the US. Regardless, we needed an exits strategy (we were daily flying combat missions over Iraq) because it became abundantly clear that Saddam would never abide UN mandates.

	01-09-2003 04:44									#60
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There's a better argument against that, Ned, and I'm sure Boris will come up with it.

However, parallels between WWII and Iraq are irrelevant--firstly, WWII was defensive.

Also, you're wrong. It's very possible to hope the troops at least come back home safely and still be against the war. Tell me how it isn't.