02-09-2003 19:58									#181
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Are you actually critiquing my arguments, or just b!tching?

Plrase point out where you made an argument in your last post and I will critique it where needed.

	02-09-2003 20:03									#182
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quote: Plrase point out where you made an argument in your last post and I will critique it where needed.

As my opponent in this debate, thats your job .

Tingkai: An interesting position, but largely irrelevant here. We have established that these spitting incidents happened, and they suck, although no-one here is going to lose any sleep over it. I am asking what it proves that a few idiots decided to share their saliva with the world. Oerdin must also prove that this happened en mass, regularly, and was common.

	02-09-2003 20:13									#183
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elijah - I would highly recommend you check your PMs... and soon.

	02-09-2003 20:16									#184
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Ok, let's assume for a second you are right and it was only a handful of incidences where such activity occured. How do you propose the media picks it up and potrays it as being a common event?

BTW It is a little disingenious on your part to demand I provide links to news articles which were decades old by the time the internet rolled around. There aren't many newspapers who have 30 year old articles on line complete with pictures.

	02-09-2003 20:23									#185
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Oerdin: You don't have to provide articles, maybe just a little account if you can recall. I will research this matter later if you dont want to, thus far I have no reason to doubt your claims except for lack of evidence. Stats would be nice though to show this matter conclusively. If I can find enough individual accounts of a reasonable diversity, I will concur with your position that this was a common occurance. In the meantime, its reasonable doubt until I know for sure. I think thats fair?

By the way, I never trust the (contemporary) media to provide me with accurate historical information.

	02-09-2003 20:24									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai t is not that they are lying, but rather their memory has changed.

Tinkai, I actually find that study to be very interesting. It is possible that some people are following the pattern you described, however, if we assume 75% of the people are remembering incorrectly then we still have several thousand instances (I am assuming) spread out over the whole period.

Still, you have an interesting point about people's memories continually changing and 30 years is a long time.

	02-09-2003 20:29									#187
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Elijah was busy writing articles and getting drunk (though not necessarily in that order ).

Well, I wouldn't say drunk... That bottle of Reka Valley and the other Cabernet did disappear quickly though

I do agree with one point though. Oerdin made the claim that soldiers were spat upon, and thus the burden of evidence (I hate the idea of proof) is on him. It is very hard to find evidence that soemthing didn't happen, as that usually signifies a lack of evidence. However this is clouding the argument IMHO. So a few vets may or may not have been spat upon, of course some anti-war protestors will act despicably, as will some people in almost any group. The real issue here is about the justification of war, and the actions of the majority of pro and anti-war believers.

	02-09-2003 20:30									#188
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Tingkai: An interesting position, but largely irrelevant here. We have established that these spitting incidents happened, and they suck

On the contrary. The only thing we have are recounting memories of events that happened 30 years ago. We don't have documents from that era. The question of whether these memories are accurate is highly relevant.

	02-09-2003 20:31									#189
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quote: Well, I wouldn't say drunk

I suppose I was reasonable considering I drank 3/4 of a bottle of red in 40 mins! Still, where did that Tequila go? *looks at Drogue's and Verres's livers*

Rest of Drogues post:

	02-09-2003 20:32									#190
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quote: On the contrary. The only thing we have are recounting memories of events that happened 30 years ago. We don't have documents from that era. The question of whether these memories are accurate is highly relevant.

True, but most historians would consider many corresponding personal testimonies to be strong evidence, particularly if they are from disperate people, from disperate backgrounds. I shall attempt to find these later.

	02-09-2003 20:41									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Tinkai, I actually find that study to be very interesting. It is possible that some people are following the pattern you described, however, if we assume 75% of the people are remembering incorrectly then we still have several thousand instances (I am assuming) spread out over the whole period.

When I was a teenager during the 70s, I was in the air cadets (a quasi-military organization) which meant I had a military-style haircut. That made me stick out when 99% of the people had really long hair. I used to get into a lot of fights. Was this because:
a) I'm an obnoxious, opinated bastard;
b) I looked different and that's enough reason for some people to start a fight; or
c) I was in an organization run by the military.

Everyone here will automatically say A

But I could easily convince myself that the answer is C.

We place our own interpretation on events. This is why other supporting evidence is required. That supporting evidence has not been provided. We have dozens of conservative think tanks, commentators, professors, etc, yet none of them have produced supporting documents to back up the claim that peace activists spat on vets.

	02-09-2003 20:44									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai We place our own interpretation on events. This is why other supporting evidence is required. That supporting evidence has not been provided. We have dozens of conservative think tanks, commentators, professors, etc, yet none of them have produced supporting documents to back up the claim that peace activists spat on vets.

Sure, but none of them have proving Mr. Lembcke wrong as a priority because in there eyes this is already an issue which was settled 30 years ago. Also you were in Canada during this period weren't you? Since Canada wasn't ever officially involved with the war it makes sense that anti-war sentiment was much less then in the US.

	02-09-2003 20:51									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Sure, but none of them have proving Mr. Lembcke wrong as a priority because in there eyes this is already an issue which was settled 30 years ago. Also you were in Canada during this period weren't you? Since Canada wasn't ever officially involved with the war it makes sense that anti-war sentiment was much less then in the US.

I was just using my experience as an example of how people can put their own interpretations on other people's motives.

Edit: I think it would be reasonable that somewhere in the US, some conservative research would be thinking "This Lembcke guy is spreading lies and I'm going to prove him wrong." But it hasn't happened.

	02-09-2003 21:01									#194
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By the way, if you haven't read his book, you should give it a chance. He shows how the cultural image of Vietnam vets changed over the years by tracking movies, from "heros" in the Green Berets to the "crazed veterans" in post-war movies.

He does have a chip on his shoulder. What pisses him off is that the vets who wanted to end the war have been forgotten.

	02-09-2003 21:19									#195
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quote: By the way, if you haven't read his book, you should give it a chance. He shows how the cultural image of Vietnam vets changed over the years by tracking movies, from "heros" in the Green Berets to the "crazed veterans" in post-war movies.

Will do? Any particular one I should read, time being an issue :hunted:

	02-09-2003 21:40									#196
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Sikander:
at the end of your post you write down the name of a book. Are we to infer what you wrote was a quote from the book? If so, ae you the author of the book?

	02-09-2003 22:01									#197
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Still, where did that Tequila go? *looks at Drogue's and Verres's livers*

Who me? I was driving Besides, not that much went. Your the one who claims drunkenness Weren't you teetotalling anyway? If not, shall we go out tonight to celebrate you and Verres getting back in?

	02-09-2003 22:09									#198
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Stupid hair trigger. I TOLD those guys I should have a safety on the Luge.

Send the Wolf in for cleanup - I've got a bit of a mess on my hands.

	02-09-2003 22:09									#199
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Sounds like a plan! Except lack of money... not that I'm going to drink *cough* so sounds good!

Spellling Nazi: T-totalling

You were driving on red wine, tequila and champagne!

I was "loosened up", not drunk. Still, I felt a little slower than usual (understatement).

	02-09-2003 22:20									#200
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Sounds like a plan! Except lack of money... not that I'm going to drink *cough* so sounds good!

So that's a no?

quote: Originally posted by elijah Spellling Nazi: T-totalling

No, it's teetotaling. Appears in the OED.

quote: Originally posted by elijah You were driving on red wine, tequila and champagne!

A few hours before, and not that much of it. It should have been out of my system by the time I drove, and I was under the legal limit anyway.

	02-09-2003 22:34									#201
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quote: So that's a no?

No. You just rang me anyway

quote: No, it's teetotaling. Appears in the OED.

Oxford? Bah! What do they know?

quote: A few hours before, and not that much of it. It should have been out of my system by the time I drove, and I was under the legal limit anyway.

It remains in your system, and if you were breathalised, it would have shown up.

	02-09-2003 22:35									#202
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When do we think the troops will come home?

	03-09-2003 00:49									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Odie, you made this claim yesterday, we asked for some proof, you haven't provided any. If there are tons of material from the Vietnam war period then post some links.

Yeah, like newspaper and magazine articles from the 19****ing60's and early 70's are routinely archived and readily searchable anywhere.

Were you alive then? Were you here in the US then? So all you're doing is taking an unsubstantiated claim (can't prove what people didn't do, especially on a large scale) that fits what you want to believe.

quote: So what you're saying is that dozens of protesters would block the doors to major airports, throw garbage at people, and the airport officials would do nothing.

Nice spin. They didn't have to be "dozens." They didn't have to block the doors. They didn't have to all throw garbage. Verbal harassment, spitting, "accidentally" slamming into you, throwing stuff. There was a whole range of possibilities. And airports are big places, with small security staffs. You think there are armed guards every 50 feet? You're the one who is asserting that none of this ever happened, anywhere, and that anyone who says otherwise is lying.

	03-09-2003 01:08									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It is not that they are lying, but rather their memory has changed. A classic experiment is the Neisser's study of how people remembered the Challenger explosion. The day after the explosion, he had 100 university students write down exactly where and how they had heard about the explosion. About three years later, he interviewed 44 and asked them to remember that day. Only three people were able to provide the same answers to what they had written the day after the explosion. About 10 of the students gave completely different answers, and even when shown their original answers, they couldn't remember it. In other words, new memories had replaced what actually happend. Neisser tells how he has vivid memories of hearing about the attack on Pearl Harbour while listening to a baseball game. But of course that's impossible given the attack happened in December. Kind of scary when you think about it. How accurate are our life memories? Not very it seems.

I'd say it's interesting, but not particularly relevant. In this experiment, you have a "major" (in the sense of newsworthy) event, that's actually relatively minor in these people's lives, it doesn't directly happen "to" them, it's simply a notable event, and people are asked to remember what is ordinarily trivial details about their surroundings.

That's a lot different from remembering the core elements of an event that happened directly to you, or directly affected you. Also, you can't say if it applies to these "decades later" recollections, unless you know for a fact that none of these later published recollections were based on documents at the time such as letters, journals, or diaries.

	03-09-2003 02:00									#205
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quote: Originally posted by elijah When do we think the troops will come home?

Um -- when the occupation ends?

	03-09-2003 04:12									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Ned: 1) The SDS was not a communist front. It was a radical student organization. There's a difference.

It was communist, with a small "c" in the words of one of their leaders. Here is a history of the SDS.

http://barksdale.uta.edu/undergrad2a.htm

The SDS, which was the anti-war movement, believed Vietnam was wrong because we were opposing communism. They were, in fact, on the other side in that war. Their action became increasingly violent. I would not be surprised if they deliberately spit or threw eggs and the like at returning Vets.

quote: 2) The election of '72 was a repudiation of McGovern, not an endorsement of Nixon. This is why Nixon's people wanted McGovern to get the nomination to begin with.

So what? The point remains. McGovern was the one who wanted to crawl on his belly to Hanoi to get peace. Nixon wanted peace on honorable terms and was willing to escallate until the communists gave it.

quote: 3) Nixon handling of the war included the secret bombings of Cambodia and military incursions into neutral Laos, both of which reinvigorated the protests. And why shouldn't they have? In a just world, Nixan and Kissinger would have found themselves at the Hague, on trial for war crimes.

Bull. Nixon went were the enemy was. The NVA base camps were in Cambodia. The Ho Chi Minh trail was in Laos. And rather than being secret, Nixon announced the incursions on TV with charts and graphs explaining what we were doing and why.

quote: 4) There is no inconsistancy between Nixon's re-election and his opponent's increasing vehemence. If anything, the former fueled the latter. As a point of comparison that should resonate with your conservative politics, you might want to consider how the re-election of Bill Clinton didn't silence his critics but instead pushed them over the edge until they were rabidly using every means at their deranged disposal to try to drive him from office.

What you mean to say is that Watergate did not die with the election. It continued to grow as an issue primarily because Nixon chose cover up the burglaries and its directors from his campaign staff, and later chose to cover up the cover up. All of this was unravelled by "Deep Throat."

Had Nixon not had Watergate, Vietnam would not have fallen. Clearly the fall of Nixon signaled the North Vietnamese to renew the conflict.

	03-09-2003 04:33									#207
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Ned, the people of Vietnam WANTED a communist government. The Vietnam War was a result of too many people in high placed being tricked into beleiving the domino effect BS, that crackpot Deim guy was proped up by the US even though he was violating human rights right and left. Read up a bit on your history, Ned, instead of reading conservative propaganda.

BTW, I think Tingkai is full of it, quit giving us a bad name with that crap, man.

	03-09-2003 04:59									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Ned, the people of Vietnam WANTED a communist government. The Vietnam War was a result of too many people in high placed being tricked into beleiving the domino effect BS, that crackpot Deim guy was proped up by the US even though he was violating human rights right and left. Read up a bit on your history, Ned, instead of reading conservative propaganda. BTW, I think Tingkai is full of it, quit giving us a bad name with that crap, man.

Odin, I don't have to read up on much of that history since I remember it.

I agree that the elections scheduled in the mid 50's were postponed because Ho Chi Minh would have won.

Even if the people in high places believed in the Domino Effect, the reason the SDS opposed the war was because they actually favored the other side because it was communist, not because the Domino Effect was incorrect.

	03-09-2003 16:32									#209
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Nice spin. They didn't have to be "dozens." They didn't have to block the doors. They didn't have to all throw garbage.

Oerdin is the one claiming that there were protests at the airport that occurred every day for months, not me.

	03-09-2003 16:41									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I even attended an anti-war protest (the incursion into Cambodia in 1970 was the reason for this protest) as an observer. I was 9 years old in 1970 and rapidly came to one conclusion. There wasn't a single person that I met who was an anti-war activist who knew the first thing about Vietnam, American Forces, Asia or really anything germain to the discussion

Whereas you, the nine-year-old, were an expert.