03-09-2003 04:14									#61
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quote: Elijah, you are very right. There are hotheads, both liberals and conservates, while the vast majority are well behaved. The key words is that both sides are guilty of using violence to defend their position, both liberal and conservative

Agreed. As a person who deals with concepts, other peoples interpretations and actions upon them mean very little. I disagree with the BNP, not because they are racist thugs, but because their policies suck.

quote: But ANY kind of generalization you make of any political group is wrong. And yes -- I see that now you have realized that such generalizations are wrong.

Spelling Nazi: Spell it BRITISHLY!!!

Look at my argument, it is not a generalisation, merely an observation, backed up by conceptual evidence. A generalisation based upon that would be "Conservatives are less intelligent than liberals", which if you are reading, is something that I completely disagree with.

	03-09-2003 04:15									#62
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quote: Indeed, all the intellectuals I know are liberal, whereas non-intellectuals (that is irrelevant to intelligence which is a completely irrelevant matter) have a far higher proportion of conservatives, in my experience, the experience of others, and speaking generically.

And there is the fly in the ointment. The 'proof' is based on personal experiences and generalizations based on those experiences.

	03-09-2003 04:24									#63
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It is mostly true in the UK, to be fair.

	03-09-2003 04:26									#64
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Nothing interesting at all......

	03-09-2003 04:31									#65
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quote: And there is the fly in the ointment. The 'proof' is based on personal experiences and generalizations based on those experiences.

No, its based on the concepts behind either position and my personal experiences which are somewhat extensive. Indeed, if the situation wasn't as extreme, it wouldn't be fair to make a small scale generalisation about my experiences, but thats not the case. All the intellectuals (students, family, friends, extended family, friends of family, acquaintances etc) are liberals with no exception that I can think of (well Drogue claims to be a centrist but he has a similar liberalism to me).

	03-09-2003 04:34									#66
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Elijah: regarding your post on how neoconservatives rely on such things because they seek to impose their values on others (a basic summary), I'd like to point out that there are groups of liberals who seek to do this too. Soviet communists tried to impose their ideology on others as well. So you're still wrong.

	03-09-2003 04:35									#67
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'liberals use reason and logic...while conservatives only use fear and hate'

what about:
Liberals only use reason and logic....

??

	03-09-2003 04:35									#68
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Thankyou GePap: Couldn't have put a description of this thread better myself!

Well... I suppose it could have been a lot more entertaining

MikeH: I imagine the situation is different in the USA, but I can think of numerous sociological factors for that being the case.

	03-09-2003 04:36									#69
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quote: Elijah: regarding your post on how neoconservatives rely on such things because they seek to impose their values on others (a basic summary), I'd like to point out that there are groups of liberals who seek to do this too. Soviet communists tried to impose their ideology on others as well. So you're still wrong.

The day I consider the Soviets to be liberal is the day I'll be chewing icicles in hell!! How do you arrive at the conclusion that they are liberal, when these are some of the most conservative people that ever lived!?!?!

EDIT: A liberal by my definition is a moral relativist and usually cultural too, though most are less extreme in that respect than me, but enough so to be inherently pacifist.

	03-09-2003 04:37									#70
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Communist = left-wing extreme = liberal.

Unless we're subscribing to the definition of liberals as those who use logic and reason. In which case I agree with you

	03-09-2003 04:38									#71
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Nothing interesting at all......

The Conservatives know they are wrong so they are insulting Elijah to pump up thier deflated egos.

	03-09-2003 04:39									#72
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GePap was dissing a conservative, Odin

	03-09-2003 04:39									#73
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quote: Communist = left-wing extreme = liberal.

How very one dimensional Not really worth serious response... unless I'm really provoked

quote: Unless we're subscribing to the definition of liberals as those who use logic and reason. In which case I agree with you

	03-09-2003 04:40									#74
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how did people come to the conclusion reds are liberal?
And how did we get to liberals being left-wing?

	03-09-2003 04:42									#75
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quote: Originally posted by elijah How very one dimensional Not really worth serious response... unless I'm really provoked

So communists are conservative? If you dismiss them becuase of their extreme ideology, you fall into the second case I described. There, I was only half joking.

quote:

Oh, I forgot to mention another consequence of that definition: I am a liberal and you are not

j/k

	03-09-2003 04:42									#76
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man how did people come to the conclusion reds are liberal? And how did we get to liberals being left-wing?

Ok... since when AREN'T liberals left-wing?

So, soon we won't call Democrats liberals either?

	03-09-2003 04:45									#77
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Democrats are harldy left-wing! I mean, I thought left wing was about socialism and comunitarianism, you guys use a modernized form for the basis of capitalism as 'left-wing'

Its a joke.

	03-09-2003 04:46									#78
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quote: And how did we get to liberals being left-wing?

Hell, I'm a right wing liberal!! Incidentally, libertarian communism is my ideology. Its a far more complex situation than simplistic interpretations would allow.

quote: So communists are conservative?

Stalinists are. As a libertarian communist, I am not. As a right wing liberal, (the liberal has nothing to do with my interpretation of communism), I am definitely not. As an environmentalist, I am in the wide context.

quote: If you dismiss them becuase of their extreme ideology, you fall into the second case I described. There, I was only half joking.

How that idea works in any consistent fashion is way beyond me.

quote: Oh, I forgot to mention another consequence of that definition: I am a liberal and you are not

And that works doesn't it?

	03-09-2003 04:50									#79
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Libertarian Communism? Isn't that an oxymoron?

	03-09-2003 04:51									#80
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker GePap was dissing a conservative, Odin

Come on, this thread is the equivalent of a boring intellectual tea party, and we are unlucky enough that the sweets are stale and the tea cold. Given that everyone was told not to be controversial, and given the general low level of dabte on this issue in any thread,

	03-09-2003 04:51									#81
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Economics, liberty, environment, idealism, logic/objectivity, determinism;

These are just a few dimensions to the question of political positions there are probably many many more.

Its idiocy to attempt to define what and where each position can correspond to another, and then say, "that is liberal, that is conservative". Like I said, the situation is way more complex than that. I can adopt elements of conservatism, communism, libertarianism etc etc that would appear complete opposites on a 1/2 dimensional spectrum, but are more and more consistent the more dimensions you add!

	03-09-2003 04:52									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Libertarian Communism? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Nothing is an oxymoron, if one admits enough shades of grey. A world beyond black and white allows for far more interesting pics.

	03-09-2003 04:52									#83
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Hell, I'm a right wing liberal!! Incidentally, libertarian communism is my ideology. Its a far more complex situation than simplistic interpretations would allow. Stalinists are. As a libertarian communist, I am not. As a right wing liberal, (the liberal has nothing to do with my interpretation of communism), I am definitely not. As an environmentalist, I am in the wide context. How that idea works in any consistent fashion is way beyond me. And that works doesn't it?

right-wing liberal and libertarian communism are oxymorons

You're as messed up as Floyd.

	03-09-2003 04:53									#84
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GePap: We need conservative opposition! jk

	03-09-2003 04:54									#85
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quote: All the intellectuals (students, family, friends, extended family, friends of family, acquaintances etc) are liberals with no exception that I can think of (well Drogue claims to be a centrist but he has a similar liberalism to me).

And this proves the point? The people you surround yourself with stand for the population at large? What about the vast numbers of intelligent conservatives that you may see on television or read posts from, etc?

	03-09-2003 04:57									#86
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quote: Libertarian Communism? Isn't that an oxymoron?

If you want to be simplistic, its anarchism. That simplistic interpretation requires more explanation, as with classic anarchism, the right wing liberalism it allows would destroy the former. Hence, I am libertarian communist, and a right wing liberal.

quote: A world beyond black and white allows for far more interesting pics.

GePap: Couldn't have put it better! I love you man!!!

quote: right-wing liberal and libertarian communism are oxymorons

How so?

quote: You're as messed up as Floyd.

However Floyd is, he obviously is a god! jk

	03-09-2003 05:00									#87
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quote: All the intellectuals (students, family, friends, extended family, friends of family, acquaintances etc) are liberals with no exception that I can think of (well Drogue claims to be a centrist but he has a similar liberalism to me).

Hm...what can I do to make me feel better about myself?


"It is a well known fact that all non-Americans are weak. It's just easier for them."

	03-09-2003 05:02									#88
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quote: And this proves the point? The people you surround yourself with stand for the population at large? What about the vast numbers of intelligent conservatives that you may see on television or read posts from, etc?

Surround myself? Was born into? Randomly know people? The vast numbers of intelligent conservatives; many of whom are not intellectuals, and those that are are tended to be needed to speak with a loud voice anyway. They dont necessarily represent the voice or the demographic of most conservatives.

	03-09-2003 05:07									#89
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quote: The vast numbers of intelligent conservatives; many of whom are not intellectuals

Especially when you define 'intellectual' as those people that chose more 'liberal' professions, such as teaching .

quote: They dont necessarily represent the voice or the demographic of most conservatives.

Neither do most intelligent liberals, as far as I'm aware.

	03-09-2003 05:07									#90
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quote: Hm...what can I do to make me feel better about myself?

Weed, alcohol, parties, sex, omnipotence. Its not that hard .

quote: "It is a well known fact that all non-Americans are weak. It's just easier for them."

I love Americans! I don't like their government. Just because I disagree with the neocon position is no basis for me to say that I think they are less intelligent.