04-09-2003 03:53									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Ned: I do belive elijah pointed to the original meaning of the word. That's 'love of wisdom'. At least until some genius tells us that this is a missunderstanding of ancient greek.

As far as i know, you are right. (And Imran, dont even try to call me 'silly' for saying this. When it comes to classics I could crush you with the tip of my finger)

	04-09-2003 03:53									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui To say that idealism can NEVER be reality is simply being silly.

Well, if it becomes reality, then surely it has gone into the realms of realism. It has gone from being an idealistic view into a realistic one. Idealism, IMHO, seems to have the purpose of coming up with ideals, with ideas of what is great, regardless of possibilities. Realism has the same, but with the constraint of what is possible, or even what is probable. They both have the same purpose, to improve humanity, but idealism admits that it is the ideal, the thought that matters, whereas realism purports that the effect, the result, is what is important. That is what I see as the difference.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Political philosophies are by their very nature realistic. And can be idealistic as well. For example, Woodrow Wilson's "14 points" were an idealistic political philosophy.

But the nature of being political, of being something that is possible, makes it realistic. It can be a realistic ideal.

	04-09-2003 03:55									#183
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quote: The whole point of idealism is to change the current reality

Read Plato.

quote: And can be idealistic as well. For example, Woodrow Wilson's "14 points" were an idealistic political philosophy

Do the Americans enjoy irritating the French?

quote: A silly argument. What happens with an 'ideal' becomes the reality? Yes, it is no longer 'ideal', because it has come to pass, BUT you cannot deny that an idealistic principal HAS become reality

I believe you think idealism means progressive. It is not. You are talking about liberalism

quote: To say that idealism can NEVER be reality is simply being silly

See above.

	04-09-2003 03:56									#184
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Look at the title to this thread: Liberals use logic and reasoning. This is exactly what philosophy is to a point. But philosophy is the search for truth using logic and reasoning. To deny that their is truth as a starting premise, one must only conclude that the philosophy of liberal relativists is the use of logic and reason in search of something other than the truth.

	04-09-2003 03:58									#185
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I really would have thought the vocabulary of a deity could extend beyond the word 'silly'...

	04-09-2003 03:59									#186
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Verres: Perhaps, but it would help to explain the Middle East wouldn't it?

	04-09-2003 04:02									#188
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I fully agree with Imran Siddiqui in this thread.

	04-09-2003 04:04									#189
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Ned: Truth is that there is no truth. Pretty basic stuff. You can go round and round in circles arguing "there is truth, no there isnt" and I'll win, but the equilibrium to that conflict is idealistic truth. My truth is different to yours. Objectively, there is none. Simple really.

	04-09-2003 04:05									#190
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You have good reason to look worried...

	04-09-2003 04:05									#191
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quote: I fully agree with Imran Siddiqui in this thread.

Opinion of Belgium is going dooowwn. jk

	04-09-2003 04:06									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I fully agree with Imran Siddiqui in this thread.

We really don't want to start on the nature of logic do we I still have to write the next Meditations though

BTW: Have played the turn

	04-09-2003 04:07									#193
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elijah, pure relativism is stupid. It may be flawlessly logical, but when applied to the real world it DOESN'T WORK.

	04-09-2003 04:08									#194
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Its called off topic for a reason Drogue!

	04-09-2003 04:09									#195
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Speaking of which, hasnt this whole thread gone rather off the topic???

	04-09-2003 04:09									#196
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quote: elijah, pure relativism is stupid. It may be flawlessly logical, but when applied to the real world it DOESN'T WORK

Which makes it stupid.. how exactly? Sorry the missing link there eludes me?

	04-09-2003 04:10									#197
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quote: Well, if it becomes reality, then surely it has gone into the realms of realism. It has gone from being an idealistic view into a realistic one. Idealism, IMHO, seems to have the purpose of coming up with ideals, with ideas of what is great, regardless of possibilities.

Exactly so, but it doesn't mean that idealism can never become reality. Of course it can. If an ideal goes into the 'realm of realism', then the idealism has become reality, has it not?

quote: I believe you think idealism means progressive. It is not. You are talking about liberalism

I'm not, but liberalism does have its own idealism . Idealism basically involves coming up with an 'ideal' way to do something or and ideal end result.

And if this is condescending, then it is because you deserve nothing more .

	04-09-2003 04:11									#198
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quote: Speaking of which, hasnt this whole thread gone rather off the topic???

This is nothing in OT terms! When you see a thread frequented by Asher turning into a debate about "your favourite colour", then you have seen true spam!

EDIT: Though I believe this was a conservative attempt to discredit and flame me

	04-09-2003 04:13									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue We really don't want to start on the nature of logic do we I still have to write the next Meditations though BTW: Have played the turn

Ah great!

Anyway, when I said I agreed with Imran I more specifically meant him saying that a relativist can still be relativist while wanting to impose his not-more-worthy-than-any-other moral system on other people. For the rest of course I completely disagree with his not-less-worthy-than-my ideology.

	04-09-2003 04:14									#200
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This thread should die.

The entire topic is completely mangled by the fact that there seems to be at least five different sets of definitions for various key terms being used and I enjoy watching elijah spout how the truth is there is no truth about as much as I enjoy having my toenails pulled out.

	04-09-2003 04:16									#201
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quote: Exactly so, but it doesn't mean that idealism can never become reality. Of course it can. If an ideal goes into the 'realm of realism', then the idealism has become reality, has it not?

As I said before, the ideal, the concept never does. Only a realistic interpretation of it. That is a seperate conceptual entity.

quote: I'm not, but liberalism does have its own idealism . Idealism basically involves coming up with an 'ideal' way to do something or and ideal end result.

Plato would have something to say about that. In his absense... AGATHON!!

That does not even come close to idealism. Non-pragmatism, perhaps. Progressive? Perhaps.

quote: And if this is condescending, then it is because you deserve nothing more

You're really throwing yourself to the lions now arent you?

	04-09-2003 04:18									#202
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Its called off topic for a reason Drogue!

Sorry though, just surprised to see Maniac here

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Well, if it becomes reality, then surely it has gone into the realms of realism. It has gone from being an idealistic view into a realistic one. Idealism, IMHO, seems to have the purpose of coming up with ideals, with ideas of what is great, regardless of possibilities. Exactly so, but it doesn't mean that idealism can never become reality. Of course it can. If an ideal goes into the 'realm of realism', then the idealism has become reality, has it not?

Yes, but it has become a practical ideal, a realistic ideal. What I basically mean, is that in becoming realistic, it has become a realistic action, rather than an idealistic one. Given the presumtion that an idealist does not care about practicalities to any great degree, if an ideal becomes reality, then it is the work of a realist, to some degree. If it becomes real, it changes from an ideal to a reality. It canot be both, as ideal implies that it is not a reality yet. It could be, and if it does become reality, then it is a realistic ideal, but it is only an ideal until it becomes real, then it is a reality.

Wow that's long winded. Sorry for the waffle

	04-09-2003 04:18									#203
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quote: I enjoy watching elijah spout how the truth is there is no truth

While I would love to see you have your toenails pulled out, perhaps you would do me the honour of giving me an actual argument against my view.

quote: The entire topic is completely mangled by the fact that there seems to be at least five different sets of definitions for various key terms being used

The only consistent one is used by Verres, Drogue, and myself. Must be something in the water

	04-09-2003 04:20									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Anyway, when I said I agreed with Imran I more specifically meant him saying that a relativist can still be relativist while wanting to impose his not-more-worthy-than-any-other moral system on other people. For the rest of course I completely disagree with his not-less-worthy-than-my ideology.

Good good

	04-09-2003 04:21									#205
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quote: What I basically mean, is that in becoming realistic, it has become a realistic action, rather than an idealistic one.

But the main point stands... idealism CAN become reality. It may require the 'work of a realist', but it can enter into force in the real world. In fact most of our governmental structures are the products of applications of idealist ideas.

quote: As I said before, the ideal, the concept never does. Only a realistic interpretation of it. That is a seperate conceptual entity.

The rub is that I don't believe it is. I think they are very similar conceptual entities. They are basically two sides of the same coin.

	04-09-2003 04:21									#206
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I'm not arguing against it. I'm saying the entire topic is getting painfully boring. And I'm exaggerating when I say five; it's really four

	04-09-2003 04:22									#207
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quote: The only consistent one is used by Verres, Drogue, and myself.

Which would be ok if consistency always equalled correctness .

	04-09-2003 04:23									#208
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Skywalker, you have a point. Perhaps the bottom line between conservatives and liberals is that liberal deny there is a truth and conservatives do not. Obviously, this is a vast overgeneralization. But it does seem to be true to an extent if one thinks about how liberals and conservatives argue their respective positions on issues.

	04-09-2003 04:23									#209
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quote: Originally posted by elijah The only consistent one is used by Verres, Drogue, and myself. Must be something in the water

I wouldn't go that far. Us using the same terminology would be a break from the norm

	04-09-2003 04:23									#210
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Hey, Ned, what about us in the middle... or am I a liberal now . Though I guess that depends on what defintion .