05-09-2003 08:40									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Interestingly they all involve Asher .

I'm prolific, provocative, and personable. I can't help it.

	05-09-2003 08:42									#182
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Or rather, you can never answer the question

	05-09-2003 08:43									#183
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Or maybe I answered the question so well it BLEW YOUR MIND!!

(Seinfeld reference)

	05-09-2003 08:46									#184
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So now we jacked the jack.

	05-09-2003 08:47									#185
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Thank you

	05-09-2003 09:06									#186
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Let's all do the thread-jack dance!!

	05-09-2003 21:38									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So there are no private universities?

They aren't funded by the market system. They exist from their endowments and donations. It is not a case of them selling a marketable good.

quote: You had to read philosophy books to understand public taxation supporting universities?

You should because you don't.

quote: I support subsidizing universities, I also support universities that are more practical than what they are today. Disinterested inquiry has taken us where we are now, and now it's up to those fields that have splintered off to carry the torch.

But changing the character of universities to the mere investigation of what is useful or marketable ignores the values which they are supposed to enshrine. You need an argument to show that the search for knowledge for its own sake has no value. If you don't have one then leave the universities alone.

quote: Things are too complex for philosophers to do anymore, which is why they resort to things like arguing (and spending taxpayer's money on) arguing about "What is happiness" and something about the "I am lying" paradox.

Since you don't understand the import of the liar paradox, perhaps you ought to stop using it.

quote: Universities, as per their definition, are merely places of higher learning.

A definition you got out of a ****ing dictionary. And you accused me of playing semantics

Have you not been at university long enough to know that dictionary definitions aren't really sufficient in debates like these. Look at what universities actually do - look at their statements of purpose.

quote: That includes things such as computer science. Nowhere in the definition, in any dictionary that I've found, does it say anything about universities being places purely for satisfying curiousity.

Instead of looking in a dictionary why don't you look at various legal documents like statements of purpose and governmental Education Acts?

quote: They're for educating people, and some of them also for conducting research. Once again you're cornered into the wall, basing your argument about "what a university is", even though the very definitions of the language you use tell everyone otherwise.

Rot. A dictionary is a rough guide to established usage. They are not really useful in technical debates. I could look up "bordello" in a dictionary and it would give me a rough definition, but clearly not everything there is to know about bordellos or how they operate. Give up this ridiculous line of argument - it's making you look stupid.

quote: What you think a university is isn't the case. It's not as specifically defined as you would like for your job security, it's a place of higher learning and research.

A place in which both pure and applied research takes place. Philosophy is on the "pure" side.

quote: It also doesn't mean I have to like it, which would make you an idiot for taking issue with my taking issue with not liking it. How's that for philosophy for you?

But your argument isn't about liking it. You are arguing that it's useless. Actually you aren't arguing, you are merely repeating the claim that it's useless without any real supporting reasons.

My argument has been that even if philosophy has no marketable practical use, it still has value for people (just like all knowledge for its own sake). In no place have you managed to even come close to formulating a counterargument to this thesis. Instead you keep ranting on about how it isn't useful. My argument is that it doesn't have to be useful in your sense to be valuable. This is why you are losing the argument. You are using as your basis a proposition that is in dispute.

quote: I don't think symphonies should be tax subsidized (indeed, this was a huge issue for the Calgary Philharmonic -- they asked for funding but the governments said no, so corporations pulled through and resurrected it).

Which nicely proves my point - they have to rely on voluntary donations (just like "private" universities", not just on ticket sales. In the case of universities, however, we need to keep corporate sponsorship at arms length since the appearance of academic freedom must never be compromised. Thank you for proving my point.

quote: Leave this to GePap, Agathon, you're tearing down all his hard work.

All he's saying is stuff I said last time we had this argument. I took a different tack this time, partly for the fun of it.

You are just looking for a way out of this argument now because you've been thrashed and other posters are appearing to confirm it. Of course you don't want to admit that I'm right about this, only because its me.

	06-09-2003 10:56									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon A definition you got out of a ****ing dictionary. And you accused me of playing semantics

Agathon, you used the definition of the term University to rationalize why it should be part of the department.

Since we're speaking in English, I checked every English dictionary I could find and found that absolutely none supported your argument.

When you based your argument on the semantics of what "University" means, then somebody owns you at your own argument, you should reevaluate your position as a teacher of philosophy.

quote: All he's saying is stuff I said last time we had this argument. I took a different tack this time, partly for the fun of it.

Absolute nonsense. GePap's arguments are sensical and coherent, every time I've been in an argument with you, you've said nothing but absurd things mixed with obvious trolls.

quote: You are just looking for a way out of this argument now because you've been thrashed and other posters are appearing to confirm it. Of course you don't want to admit that I'm right about this, only because its me.

I'm confused -- I just conceded that philosophy can stay as a discipline in university, as per GePap's argument, and now I'm "looking for a way out"?

And don't flatter yourself, you mean sh*t to me. Had you presented a competent argument like GePap did, rather than a laughably poor semantic argument, you'd have done a good job.

Maybe GePap should apply for your job.

	06-09-2003 19:48									#189
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yeah but why do you beat your boyfriend?

	06-09-2003 21:54									#190
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Agathon, do you think that courses differ in their difficulty? You don't think there are "gut" courses? I don't disdain the STUDY of philosophy at all. But I am realistic about the difference in level of difficulty in passing classes (as currently taught) in different fields.

	06-09-2003 22:00									#191
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Hist439 - Women and Revoultion in Africa
Educ413 - Ed Psych + Classroom Field Placement
Math114 - College Math and Statistics (Math req)
Posc311 - Politics of Third World Nations

and one more that I have to add (possibly a lab science, another req I need to get, or another POSC)

	07-09-2003 03:59									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Agathon, you used the definition of the term University to rationalize why it should be part of the department.

No, I used the common conception of what universities are as they function in our societies and as is stated by themselves and related parties in official documents. What we mean when we say "Universities" is what universities are since it is a concept of convention. Why should providing a suitable account of what "university" means not be the same as describing what they actually are? After all, if I am trying to explain to you what gravity is, I would give you an account of it - this account would explain what we mean when we use the term "gravity".

quote: Since we're speaking in English, I checked every English dictionary I could find and found that absolutely none supported your argument.

Dictionaries are notoriously unreliable for sorting out disputes like these. That's why 1st year university instructors warn against using dictionary definitions to resolve substantive issues.

Imagine if you were asked to write a paper on feminism and merely quoted a dictionary.

You were the one using a dictionary, not me.

quote: When you based your argument on the semantics of what "University" means, then somebody owns you at your own argument, you should reevaluate your position as a teacher of philosophy.

If you bothered to read properly, you would see how silly this statement is and how it has nothing to do with the argument.

You don't own anyone on this matter. You are out of your depth in a subject that you don't understand.

quote: Absolute nonsense. GePap's arguments are sensical and coherent, every time I've been in an argument with you, you've said nothing but absurd things mixed with obvious trolls.

Rot. You don't even seem to understand my argument since you have failed to address it adequately. Universities are there in large part to engage in the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. That's a fact. That's why philosophy is a university subject and also why it doesn't matter whether or not it is "useful" in your sense.

You've spent the entire thread saying that all university subjects should be useful and have refused to defend that point when asked. The closest you've come is a taxpayer rant which displayed your utter ignorance of economics.

Why is your failure to address the argument somehow a failing of mine. It's your stupidity that's the problem.

quote: And don't flatter yourself, you mean sh*t to me. Had you presented a competent argument like GePap did, rather than a laughably poor semantic argument, you'd have done a good job.

What a load. I presented roughly that same argument to you about six months ago (as did other people) and you ranted and raved about it then.

You are just looking for payback for your previous failures.

	07-09-2003 04:06									#193
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Agathon, do you think that courses differ in their difficulty? You don't think there are "gut" courses? I don't disdain the STUDY of philosophy at all. But I am realistic about the difference in level of difficulty in passing classes (as currently taught) in different fields.

To pass a first year humanities or social science course is not hard. To do well is somewhat harder. Where I teach, philosophy is somewhat harder than, say, English or History. Students of mine often complain about their GPAs because they thought it would be much easier than it is. However, I'd say that year 1 economics is harder as are most of the science courses since they have different aims.

The point of 1st year phil is basically to sort out the few people who really understand the subject from the rest and to provide a mild survey for those with a casual interest. It's an odd subject which some people never really get. If you made it massively hard in the first year then no one would take it and we wouldn't be able to poach students from elsewhere. Once we've got them we make it harder.

By the time you get students reading unexpurgated Kant I imagine it's as hard as anything.

However, the hardest subject at university has still got to be an old fashioned Classics program. Those people are masochists (it's worse at grad school - these people have it worse than anyone).

	07-09-2003 04:17									#194
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How many miles are in the Boston Agathon?
Woo. Go forth and spread the word.

	07-09-2003 04:18									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Elok How many miles are in the Boston Agathon? Woo. Go forth and spread the word.

	07-09-2003 04:48									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon To pass a first year humanities or social science course is not hard. To do well is somewhat harder. Where I teach, philosophy is somewhat harder than, say, English or History. Students of mine often complain about their GPAs because they thought it would be much easier than it is. However, I'd say that year 1 economics is harder as are most of the science courses since they have different aims. The point of 1st year phil is basically to sort out the few people who really understand the subject from the rest and to provide a mild survey for those with a casual interest. It's an odd subject which some people never really get. If you made it massively hard in the first year then no one would take it and we wouldn't be able to poach students from elsewhere. Once we've got them we make it harder. By the time you get students reading unexpurgated Kant I imagine it's as hard as anything. However, the hardest subject at university has still got to be an old fashioned Classics program. Those people are masochists (it's worse at grad school - these people have it worse than anyone).

Interesting area. Let's treat it philosophically.

Do you think that some areas of study are inherently harder? Like Quantum Physics versus French? Or that there is no point in thinking of basic areas of knowledge as easier/harder than others. And it is only a matter of how deep you go. Or how rigorous the course is arbitrarily made?

(More on this later, but I'll get your reaction to my questioning. And don't worry, I'm not trying to steer you into a path like that old rhetorician, Socrates (as described by Plato). Just want to chew on the idea a little.

	07-09-2003 05:15									#197
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Interesting area. Let's treat it philosophically. Do you think that some areas of study are inherently harder? Like Quantum Physics versus French? Or that there is no point in thinking of basic areas of knowledge as easier/harder than others. And it is only a matter of how deep you go. Or how rigorous the course is arbitrarily made?

"Harder for whom?" is another question. For example, some people are just good at mathematics, but hopeless at languages, others are good at applied science but no good at understanding a novel. The ideal academic is someone who's good at all of them, but that's a solely notional ideal.

A friend of mine did Graduate work in physics and the mathematics seemed mind numbingly difficult. I suppose it's not so hard if you you are used to it. But these are just cases of knowing the material and the skill of applying it. Where I think the real talent comes in is at the abstract extremes of a discipline: e.g. someone trying to come up with a completely new theoretical idea in say physics or philosophy. That's about the hardest thing someone can do, but there really isn't enough evidence to quantify which discipline is most difficult in this respect.

When it comes down to mental rigour I'd say that Physics is probably the hardest science (but that's just how it appears to me) and that Classics is probably the hardest Art if done properly. The sheer amount of grunt work required to be any good at either is astonishing (Classics involves thousands of hours of peasant labour memorizing verb forms and grammatical rules, before you even read anything interesting).

In philosophy it is often possible to get goo results through sheer talent since what really matters is what you think. I'll admit I've breezed through some courses I didn't particularly like by doing this. The converse of this is that it's possible to put in many hours and do badly if you are just no good. What makes doing good philosophy difficult is that it involves a lot of trying to wrestle with seemingly intractable problems - trying to find a new way of thinking about an old problem that may solve it - and it's all done in the head.

What I do is the worst of both worlds. Classical Philosophy. Thankfully, I'm spared having to memorize the sheer amount of literature in Classical languages that the regular Classics grads do, but I still had to translate and memorize Plato's Sophist for an exam.

Moan moan moan....

quote: (More on this later, but I'll get your reaction to my questioning. And don't worry, I'm not trying to steer you into a path like that old rhetorician, Socrates (as described by Plato). Just want to chew on the idea a little.

Socrates a rhetorician? Them's fighting words....

	07-09-2003 06:38									#198
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And, if we are in fact counting high school (no one got around to skywalker's question), I'm taking AP Calc BC, AP Comp Sci AB (again), AP US History, AP English Literature, and Technical Theatre. Senior year.

	07-09-2003 08:37									#199
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1. Don't get all fighty and testy with me. (Socrates slam.)

2. I thought you might comment about individual talents. I agree that they affect difficulty wrt subjects. However, one could take a view of the general man. (Or to be scientific the "average" man, and consider mental complexity of different tasks (and implicitly fields). So we can still make general statements like Chemistry is the toughest Freshman course at USNA and the like.

Also, I would say that while individual talent may vary, that is not the ONLY factor of importance. For instance look at the school of Education. It typically has the lowest test scores for its students. And is seen as the easy road. Or even the road for those less talented. Now Education as a topic may be capable of more complexity. But the courses taught there are a different story. They are a refuge for the weaker.

	07-09-2003 08:51									#200
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CS4001 Computerization in Society
LCC3401 Technical Communication
CS2200 Systems and Networks
CS4750 User-Interface Design
MATH3215 Probability and Statistics

Yes, I bitterly hate most of my classes.

	07-09-2003 08:56									#201
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quote: Originally posted by TCO 1. Don't get all fighty and testy with me. (Socrates slam.) 2. I thought you might comment about individual talents. I agree that they affect difficulty wrt subjects. However, one could take a view of the general man. (Or to be scientific the "average" man, and consider mental complexity of different tasks (and implicitly fields). So we can still make general statements like Chemistry is the toughest Freshman course at USNA and the like. Also, I would say that while individual talent may vary, that is not the ONLY factor of importance. For instance look at the school of Education. It typically has the lowest test scores for its students. And is seen as the easy road. Or even the road for those less talented. Now Education as a topic may be capable of more complexity. But the courses taught there are a different story. They are a refuge for the weaker.

I agree about that. I've taught education students and it's a nightmare.

I imagine the low quality of education students has much to do with the poorly paid teachers than the subject itself.

Anyway, this is an amusing article you may enjoy. It's one of my favourites. The chap is an economist (I'm under the impression you are, correct me if I'm wrong).

http://www.freeradical.co.nz/content/33/33sechrest.html

We should be careful of comparing subjects which are deliberately made easier in the first year as general interest subjects (like philosophy and English) with those like physics which is pretty gung ho from the start.

The problem with the average man view is that folks are just different, so the average man sounds more like a rarity. I know plenty of people who are fearsome debaters on aesthetic and political issues, yet who cannot perform simple mathematical operations. And I know bright CS Students who were so dense that they didn't realise that the characters in a Platonic dialogue were engaging in homosexual flirtation.

I was a pretty good all round student in high school (Won prizes in maths, science, history and art). I'd have to say I find reading difficult philosophy books harder than anything else. Sometimes one has to read the same page five times to work out what is going on (I'm talking about guys like Kant and Aristotle). Of course there is plenty of complicated "post-modern" writing in other disciplines, but I confess that I find much of it to be meaningless twaddle and those who profess it to be pretentious frauds.

It's also hard when there is no right answer but plenty of wrong ones, as occurs especially in philosophy. I always found that I was irritated with the lack of free thought afforded the students in other subjects. I once had a running battle with a history lecturer who made vast theoretical generalisations with no supporting reasons - at least in philosophy the bosses take pleasure in defending themselves.

	07-09-2003 08:58									#202
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TGN9999 Advanced Thugganomics

	07-09-2003 09:54									#203
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1. We can be fearsome of the average man concept. Meaning that it is more significant to look at the differences. But mathematically and scientifically there is an average man. And he differs from the average martian or dolphin. Also, just as we lose something by obscuring the differences among men, we lose something by ignoring general tendancies of men.

2. I am not an economist. Not sure what I am.

3. Where I went to school, English (comp first semester and Lit critique the second) seemed to be not for the purpose of enticing students, but intended as basic education. Same with physics/chem. Of course I went to a school with recitation and the like.

4. I've never had a philosophy course. Not sure what they are like. Guess I should take Asher's word? I don't even know if my school had a philosophy course. There was no department for sure.

	07-09-2003 10:05									#204
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quote: Sometimes one has to read the same page five times to work out what is going on (I'm talking about guys like Kant and Aristotle).

Damn that Kant . Hegel was a bit easier, but at times could be just as bad!

Though I never went too far in courses in the Philosophy department at Rutgers. I took a few intro classes ('Intro to Logic' and 'Intro to Classical Philosophy') to fulfill a requirement . Most of my philosophy readings were in the Political Science Department (one of my majors). They were definetly difficult, but, of course, no where near how difficult upper level classes in the Philosophy department would have been, for sure.

	07-09-2003 11:49									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Damn that Kant . Hegel was a bit easier, but at times could be just as bad!e.

Rutgers has an excellent Department.

Actually I always remember Brand Blanshard complaining about Hegel. He said something like this:

If we take the sentence 'Major Andre was hanged', and use it as a standard to rank writers for clarity; I belive we would obtain something like this. Hume, Swift and Macaulay would say he was hanged. Bosanquet would say "he was killed" which is less informative; Bradley would say "he died" which is even less accurate. Kant would say, "his mortal existence achieved its termination" which is diabolical but nowhere near as bad as Hegel, who would say, "A finite determination of infinity was further determined by its own negation."

	07-09-2003 11:52									#206
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The only Philosophy prof I remember was my Logic Prof, Earnest Lepore, who apparently is fairly famous in that field. He was a pretty fun prof, from what I remember, and he gave me an A (which suited me fine ).

quote: If we take the sentence 'Major Andre was hanged', and use it as a standard to rank writers for clarity; I belive we would obtain something like this. Hume, Swift and Macaulay would say he was hanged. Bosanquet would say "he was killed" which is less informative; Bradley would say "he died" which is even less accurate. Kant would say, "his mortal existence achieved its termination" which is diabolical but nowhere near as bad as Hegel, who would say, "A finite determination of infinity was further determined by its own negation."

	07-09-2003 13:00									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Dictionaries are notoriously unreliable for sorting out disputes like these. That's why 1st year university instructors warn against using dictionary definitions to resolve substantive issues. Imagine if you were asked to write a paper on feminism and merely quoted a dictionary. You were the one using a dictionary, not me.

You seem to be forgetting your own actions in this thread. You even said that you were "speaking English" when talking about how basic a concept of a university is. Yet English dictionaries don't agree with you. Suddenly you're now basing this argument upon what the "elite people like you" think a university is, rather than how the word is defined. You've yet to provide anything to support your argument that a University has to be about disinterested inquiry, probably because it's blatantly stupid and can't be backed up...

quote: If you bothered to read properly, you would see how silly this statement is and how it has nothing to do with the argument. You don't own anyone on this matter. You are out of your depth in a subject that you don't understand.

And you're an elitist snob that thinks he knows better than everyone else. Not everyone believes universities must adhere to disinterested inquiry in every field and must include Philosophy. You've simply said "trust me", in essense, and provided nothing to back up such an atrocious claim. You even make a remark about how you're "speaking English", yet even the dictionaries don't agree with you.

So, as someone who's out of my league here, I'm going to go out on a limb and think it's fair to say you have no case when you provide nothing to support it with, while the people who argue against you have evidence and arguments supported by fact rather than elitist opinion.

quote: Rot. You don't even seem to understand my argument

How could anyone not understand such a simple argument with fake complexity? How can anyone not see through this thinly veiled escape hatch to recover from an embarassingly bad argument on your part? "Um, no it's not stupid, you just don't get it... :rolleyes "

quote: Universities are there in large part to engage in the pursuit of knowledge for its own sake. That's a fact.

Fact according to who? What you believe a University is?
You also have to address why we don't teach classes in how to fold laundry if it truly is about the persuit of knowledge for its own sake, or why we don't teach everything. Why are we selective in what we teach? Why can't we be selective about philosophy or other subjects?

There are huge holes in this argument, aside from the obvious "fact" that you can't substantiate your claims with anything aside from your opinion.

quote: You've spent the entire thread saying that all university subjects should be useful and have refused to defend that point when asked. The closest you've come is a taxpayer rant which displayed your utter ignorance of economics.

What do you want me to defend? Why I think subjects should be useful?

That should be a no-brainer. Why should we waste time and money teaching people how to fold socks in a university course? Subjects that are useful should only be taught.

You took a horribly wrong route in the argument, GePap tried to convince me that Philosophy was not useless. He has succeeded in a way, in that teaching me that is the "language of knowledge" -- but after this continuing remarkable display by someone who is supposed to be very good at philosophy is making me question just how relevant philosophy is if someone so well-educated in it can behave like such a bafoon in elementary debates about it.

quote: Why is your failure to address the argument somehow a failing of mine. It's your stupidity that's the problem.

The problem is you don't understand that the "argument" is merely an opinion. Some people believe the government should not exist at all, others should believe it should dictate everything you do. You make the constant mistake of branding your opinions of things as "fact" and calling other peoples' opinions as "Wrong" rather than simply disagreeing with them. Further, when somebody says simple concepts like we should only teach children useful things, as in things they can use and apply to better themselves and society, you simply claim you can't defend that and you're stupid for not addressing the argument, etcetc.

quote: What a load. I presented roughly that same argument to you about six months ago (as did other people) and you ranted and raved about it then. You are just looking for payback for your previous failures.

Now THAT is a load. Your argument's last time were equally as bad as now, but as a whole focused on what philosophers did 3,000 years ago, even though I (and KH) were constantly saying we didn't care what happened then, and this is now, etc. You didn't comprehend then, but it seems now you figured that out. So you shifted your focus, to one of using your elitist opinion, masquerading it as fact and not substantiating it, then calling everyone stupid who does not share your opinion.

Your philosophy sucks, you know that?

	07-09-2003 13:07									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And I know bright CS Students who were so dense that they didn't realise that the characters in a Platonic dialogue were engaging in homosexual flirtation.

Or maybe they saw something in the dialogue that you guys missed, and while you labeled them as incorrect they saw the original intent of the dialogue while it flew over your head.

(filosofy)

	07-09-2003 13:28									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Sometimes one has to read the same page five times to work out what is going on (I'm talking about guys like Kant and Aristotle). Damn that Kant . Hegel was a bit easier, but at times could be just as bad!

OTOH there were really satisfying moments when I finally understood what he (Kant) meant

	07-09-2003 13:58									#210
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For next semester, I'm thinking of teaching a course called "Stare your desk for an hour and a half." Depends on what the school does to me. I hate my life.