07-09-2003 22:27									#61
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quote: but they'd best treat engineering reports as what they are: expert opinions from qualified professionals, and not dismiss them out of hand as self-serving lobbying

I think you can consider them as both expert opinions and self-serving lobbying.

	07-09-2003 22:39									#62
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I know that we spend about 1.5x more of a percentage of our economy on construction than does Europe (2x in absolute terms), for instance.

Really? From where do you happen to know that?

	07-09-2003 23:49									#63
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My bad. It appears to be roughly the same as a percentage of economy, and therefore one and a third or whatever per capita in absolue terms.

See page 24 of the following report (marked as page 22)...

http://www.kkc.or.jp/english/activi...ons/aic2000.pdf

Adjusted upward slightly for recent years according to the BEA GDP by industry table...

http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/dn2/gposhr.htm#1994-2001

Last edited by DanS on 07-09-2003 at 23:54

	07-09-2003 23:57									#64
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Yup. Btw, the demand side looks a bit different; 9 % for the US, 10-11 % for the EU.

	08-09-2003 00:09									#65
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Where do you get those demand side comparisons?

	08-09-2003 00:11									#66
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From national accounts or census data based on them.

eg
http://www.census.gov/const/www/c30index.html

http://www.destatis.de/basis/d/vgr/vgrtab6.htm

	08-09-2003 00:17									#67
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How do the NIPA accounts relate to the Census accounts?

	08-09-2003 00:18									#68
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Should be the same, with maybe some adjustments.

	08-09-2003 00:21									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DanS $12 billion for 15 stations isn't bad at all, which makes me think they will raise the price tag eventually. DC Metro stations cost about as much and I'm sure are utilized only a fraction of what a Manhattan station is utilized.

hi ,

whats that going to be , an express line , ......


they should also poor some money in the old unused stations , .....

and they could use many of the old railroadtunnels in the five boroughs , .... that would be cheaper then to dig new tunnels , .....


and one way to reduce the cost ; use some convicts from rikers or so , ...... give them something like 10 a day and a reduced sentence , ......

have a nice day

	08-09-2003 00:28									#70
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quote: Should be the same, with maybe some adjustments.

But then one is double the other. Why?

	08-09-2003 00:33									#71
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If I remember the methodology correctly, the output side counts the value added by the construction industry. The investment use side counts the total value of the structure, so it includes building materials, architect services etc.

	08-09-2003 00:42									#72
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Since when are the people on the far left for more heavy construction?

Aren't you afraid you'll "upset the balance of the earth?" or may accidently pave over some "sacred Indian burial ground?" (it happened here a few years ago.)

	08-09-2003 01:37									#73
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I favor more construction projects within reason -- for instance, I would oppose leveling the Rocky Mountains, and then covering it entirely under concrete.

	08-09-2003 02:35									#74
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hi ,

why the heck do they need 15 years for this new line , .....

like there aint enough traffic jam's allready on fifth , ......

in 15 years they could build one under each av , .....

and since most lines are allready there , they should re-use whats allready build , .....


darn cityhall ,......


have a nice day

	08-09-2003 02:56									#75
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They could do it inless than 15 years..if in 5 years they forced everyone living within an avenue block of second avenue o leave Manhattan, then tore throught the area at a breakneck speed...

They have to watch out for gas mains, water mains, electric and phone wires and the foundations of local buiuldings. They have to build under the street while not disrupting traffic unduly, they have to demolish various buildings and business to install the entrances to new stations, plus ventilation and emergency exits.

If anything, 15 years is an optimistic timetable.

	08-09-2003 03:11									#76
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quote: Originally posted by GePap They could do it inless than 15 years..if in 5 years they forced everyone living within an avenue block of second avenue o leave Manhattan, then tore throught the area at a breakneck speed... They have to watch out for gas mains, water mains, electric and phone wires and the foundations of local buiuldings. They have to build under the street while not disrupting traffic unduly, they have to demolish various buildings and business to install the entrances to new stations, plus ventilation and emergency exits. If anything, 15 years is an optimistic timetable.

hi ,

come-on , the water tunnels move at at a faster rate , ......

they should never have come up with this new idea , NY is full of unused line , just upgrade them and use those , .....

have a nice day

	08-09-2003 03:16									#77
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Not true. NY is not ful of unused lines. before subways they had elevates, all of which have been either already been made part of the subway system or demolished. Tunnels do not dig themselves, and even back in 1900 it was expensive. as is, there are stretches of lines once used and no longer active, but they run in areas already well served so there is no point. Small parts of this line were already built, and the sty wants to expand and finish them. it would be the first new subway line in at least 50 years.

And since when do water tunnes move?

	09-09-2003 02:30									#78
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Not true. NY is not ful of unused lines. before subways they had elevates, all of which have been either already been made part of the subway system or demolished. Tunnels do not dig themselves, and even back in 1900 it was expensive. as is, there are stretches of lines once used and no longer active, but they run in areas already well served so there is no point. Small parts of this line were already built, and the sty wants to expand and finish them. it would be the first new subway line in at least 50 years. And since when do water tunnes move?

hi ,

water tun = building moves , .....


there are still plenty of tunnels build after WWII , some stations where closed in the seventies , a couple a decade later if correct , ......

there are some people who have made some great websites about it , .....

and dont forget all the railroad tunnels who lay there unused , .....

or all the mole people who live in them , ........

will look up links later

have a nice day

	09-09-2003 02:58									#79
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What about all those secret tunels where the mole people live?

	09-09-2003 03:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What about all those secret tunels where the mole people live?

hi ,

they aint that secret , just go down to cityhall , records office , con-ed also has some great detailed plans , ......

have a nice day

	09-09-2003 05:16									#81
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A random tunnel is not the same as a line: a tunnel that goes 5-10 blocks is of no use, specially if it has no tracks, poor ventilation, no electricity, so forth and so on. Yes, some stations were closed, no lines were, so even if some stations were closed, they were on still functioning lines.

So yes, the MTA has to dig brad new tunnels and do all I said to get a new line of subway. Plus, new lines need only go were they are needed, not where someone happened for different reasons to dig a tunnel.