06-09-2003 05:10									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Good thread, Sava! to Japher for his lack of compassion. HISTORY IS NOT ON YOUR SIDE! WE WILL BURY YOU! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!

Compassion is now required by law?

What about politeness? Or respecting other people? Is that required by law too?

Just because something may be a nice thing to do, doesn't mean you should make it LEGALLY REQUIRED! That's authoritarianism at it's stupidest, and no different than religious fundamentalism.

	06-09-2003 05:38									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Revolution? I thought we already buried most of you, apart from NK and a couple lunatics in Canada.

It is called the 60's and 70's plus a bit of compassion, philosophy and logic mixed in. NK is stalinist, not communist you dipstick.

Skywalker: Did I say compassion was required by law? I ment that people who are not corrupted by greed would ostracize those who worship wealth in a ideal society.

	06-09-2003 05:40									#33
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So your "ideal society" is one in which everyone would get along and be nice and no one would live in poverty and we would all sing "Kumbaya"?

And you think this will happen?

Moreso, I don't CARE if this happens or not, a legal system that ENFORCES this violates our freedoms.

	06-09-2003 05:48									#34
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Well freedom ain't free, and the cost of economic freedom is getting too high.

	06-09-2003 05:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So your "ideal society" is one in which everyone would get along and be nice and no one would live in poverty and we would all sing "Kumbaya"? And you think this will happen? Moreso, I don't CARE if this happens or not, a legal system that ENFORCES this violates our freedoms.

What do you think Utopia is, dummy? Can't a person push for a better world?

Your rights stop when you deprive others of thier rights, and we commies think EVERYONE on earth should be paid a living wage as a fundamental right, not this $5.15 crap here in the US and the the just plain evil of not paying people diddly squat in the 3rd world.

	06-09-2003 05:53									#36
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quote: Can't a person push for a better world?

Yes, but you can't legislate that people "be nice".

quote: Your rights stop when you deprive others of thier rights, and we commies think EVERYONE on earth should be paid a living wage as a fundamental right, not this $5.15 crap here in the US and the the just plain evil of not paying people diddly squat in the 3rd world.

You have a "right" to be paid a certain amount of money? WHY?! Breach of contract is illigal, of course (at least you can sue for it). Obviously, you need to keep people from being decieved about a contract. However, if you think your labor is worth more than they offer, don't work for them! Organize a strike! But don't go crying to the government! You do not have a right to get another person's money. If you want money, work for it!

	06-09-2003 05:54									#37
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Let me say it again -

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Why am I obligated to give money I earned to someone else because they need it more? I recieve money in return for a commodity - my labor. If my labor is more valuable, then I will recieve more money. The value of my labor varies based on the same rules as any other commodity - supply and demand. Now, as I am recieving money for my labor, why should I then have to provide this money to someone with greater need for it than I? This essentially means that I am a slave to the needs of others. My labor, the ONLY commodity that is innate to me, has now been stolen by others. "From each according to his ability; to each according to his need." This is nothing more than being a slave to the needs and wants of others. Why does someone "deserve" something simply because they need it? I might as well not work, for then my need would be greater, and I would recieve more.

	06-09-2003 05:56									#38
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quote: Your rights stop when you deprive others of thier rights, and we commies think EVERYONE on earth should be paid a living wage as a fundamental right

What about the 'right to contract' with someone for whatever they will work for? Isn't that a right as well? What other rights will you come up with that deprive others of their rights?

Oh, and btw, history has already passed you by. The 60s are dead, hippie .

	06-09-2003 06:01									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Well freedom ain't free, and the cost of economic freedom is getting too high.

Thank you for proving all cliches are meaningless

quote: we commies think EVERYONE on earth should be paid a living wage as a fundamental right, not this $5.15 crap here in the US and the the just plain evil of not paying people diddly squat in the 3rd world.

Would you rather have the 3rd world not work? If not for American companies, many of these people would not have jobs. Their own countries cannot employ them, so instead American companies do. The standard of living there is far lower than in US and Europe, they'd never get the opportunity to buy a grande cafe latte for $4.

	06-09-2003 06:13									#40
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quote: Originally posted by rah There are beggers in Chicago that beg 40 hours a week then head home to their home in the suburbs. Some clear 50K in cash a year. Yet, they're getting food stamps and such. I know these are exceptions but it does make you question some of these things.

I remember that article, and it was 1 guy who made about $38,000/year. He was the highest "paid" of all the beggars, and he had an amazing ability to sell himself. The #2 guy had a horribly disfigured face, and raked in about $25,000/year. I doubt he was living large.

The article is hardly anti-Bush unless one wants to read it that way. It actually makes some very good points, but nothing new.

SS,

Can you think of something besides, "America: love it or leave it"? (which translates as "America: don't bother the status quo or conservatives won't like you")

	06-09-2003 11:34									#41
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going hungry?

come on!

That alone proves this article is crap.

THERE IS NO STARVATION PROBLEM IN AMERICA. The only starvation studies have found are anorexics. There is a malnutrition problem as poor people feed their kid Mcdonald's and the kids get too fat eating that crap.

	06-09-2003 18:09									#42
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I also like this "alarming" statistic:

quote: According to statistics from the International Labor Organization the average American last year worked 1,978 hours, up from 1,942 hours in 1990 - an increase of almost a week of work.

OMG!!!!! NO!!!!! REALLY?????

Let's do some maths here:

40 (hours per week) X 50 (weeks (assuming 2 weeks off for vacation)) = 2,000 hours!!!!

NOOO!!! People in America are working full work weeks!! What the hell is wrong with us????

	06-09-2003 18:11									#43
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"With Wal-Mart replacing General Motors as our largest employer"

Another fallacy. Nobody employs more people than the Federal Government by a long shot.

	06-09-2003 18:55									#44
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Which is pretty sad... but that's not the point.

	06-09-2003 18:59									#45
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Well, if you are complaining about the loss of income and point to Wal-Mart as the culprit because they are the "nations largest employer", and Wal-Mart is, in fact, NOT the nations largest employer, then you've got credibility issues.

Regardless, the article is the same tired spiel I've been reading since the 70s.

	06-09-2003 19:00									#46
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No, I'm saying it's sad the the federal government is the largest employer

	06-09-2003 19:18									#47
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by skywalker

The value of my labor varies based on the same rules as any other commodity - supply and demand.

[QUOTE]

Should not you reduce your offer of labor in order to increase its value ?

	06-09-2003 19:20									#48
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I don't think the Fed is a private company....

and JohnT... try including holidays in with your little "equation" about work weeks...

So far, I haven't seen a decent argument against what Mr. Sanders has said. I expected more from you guys...

	06-09-2003 19:21									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT quote: Originally posted by skywalker The value of my labor varies based on the same rules as any other commodity - supply and demand. Should not you reduce your offer of labor in order to increase its value ?

Nope, because that WOULDN'T increase its value. There are other that can provide labor that is essentially the same as mine.

	06-09-2003 19:22									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't think the Fed is a private company.... and JohnT... try including holidays in with your little "equation" about work weeks... So far, I haven't seen a decent argument against what Mr. Sanders has said. I expected more from you guys...

He DID include holidays

	06-09-2003 19:23									#51
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no, read it again... 2 weeks for vacation... that's all he included Mr. Wizard.

	06-09-2003 19:27									#52
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Yes, so? Isn't the average about 1 week of vacation? So, that other week would account for holidays, would it not?

	06-09-2003 19:28									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't think the Fed is a private company.... and JohnT... try including holidays in with your little "equation" about work weeks... So far, I haven't seen a decent argument against what Mr. Sanders has said. I expected more from you guys...

How many holidays, Sava? There are 4 traditional holidays in the US in which most everybody gets off: Labor Day, T'Giving, Xmas, and the 4th. Assume that every one of them happens on a workday: that's 32 hours.


40X50=2000
2000-32=1,968


OMFREAKIN'G!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Working Americans are fully employed!!!! What the hell is wrong with us!?!?!? WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN?????

	06-09-2003 19:29									#54
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funny, my dad works for the state and gets more than those 4... but go ahead and *****... all poor people are lazy right?

	06-09-2003 19:31									#55
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From everything you've said in the past years here, you're family isn't poor. So drop that line of argument, please... I'm in no position to argue with you about your families situation, just as you are in no position to speak about mine.

	06-09-2003 19:56									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Hey, that's more than my salary, working as a scientist. And I pay 35 % income tax on that + 25 % VAT! Not that I feel poor though. I eat beef filet or entrecoté 2-3 times a week and live in a 10- room house with the view you see in the attached picture. Beat that, beggars!

I still think that there is a trailer park somewhere on the other side

	06-09-2003 20:30									#57
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon as we fall farther away from truer capitalism and more towards oligopoly its obvious power/wealth will concentrate. the rate of large corporate mergers is rapid.

Fortunately, more than half the corporate mergers are failures, but this is possibly part of the explanation. But there are other heavy causes, mainly the attitude of the consumers who do not question the abnormally low prices of imported goods (then their jobs were delocalized) and the abnormally hight prices of sports articles which are the source of the ridiculous income of professional players.

	06-09-2003 20:40									#58
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$18k a year is considered poverty for a family of 4 in the US? sounds like they're not really poor to me. considering my father earns about that over here and has to support a family of 7 (well 5, now that 2 of us are all but self-supporting but still...).

	06-09-2003 21:01									#59
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quote: all poor people are lazy right?

Nope, but most lazy ppl are poor. I am not poor, but I am not rich. It is Saturday, and I am at work after already putting in 50 hours this week, and I don't get paid over time... Some people just don't understand what work is, and that in order to keep a job or to succeed in life you sometimes have to go above and beyond...

quote: to Japher for his lack of compassion

I have plenty of compassion, and I do also have no problem with the living wage. I just could care less for people who chose not to work, soak of the government, and demand that those who have worked their butts off pay for them to sit on theirs.

A living wage at least requires people to work, but do you ever think about who is paying them that wage? Higher wages leads to less jobs, and in a growing society that is not a good thing.

	06-09-2003 21:17									#60
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Is a woman in London on the street saying "oh, it's so lovely" a "typically middle-class" sight?

Provost said so.