17-09-2003 19:00									#91
	Got spare money?

Sorry Q, that wasn't aimed at you. I actually agree with everything you said in that post.

The smilies were meant to sum up this thread. Trying to make the ignorant see enlightenment is like bashing your head against a wall.

	17-09-2003 19:13									#92
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Thirdly, we have a low birthrate. This will drop the birthrate further.

So, Ben, if this law is passed, you are going to cease heterosexual intercourse and become gay? I think this applies to a lot of homophobes.

	17-09-2003 19:29									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Asher: Actually, I used to agree with you. However your argument assumes that all a homosexual can expect to have is a homosexual relationship. Now, we both know that's not true.

The evidence is stacking up

	18-09-2003 06:25									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi First, Why 'to the exclusion of all others?' If we approve of homosexual marriages, why not polygamy?

Polygamy would be a bit harder to implement. The easiest approach for legalizing polygamy would be to allow multiple concurrent marriages for any one person with any random one of those going on the income tax form.

Meh. No one seems to want it badly, so there's no reason to bother.

quote: Secondly, Not helpful to the churches who oppose gay marriage. They will likely have tax exemptions cut off if they refuse to marry a couple. We see this in the Marc Hall case, and I see further precedents down the line.

Whatever. I personally have no particular desire to actually encourage people to marry in churches, whatever their sexual orientation.

quote: Thirdly, we have a low birthrate. This will drop the birthrate further.

I guess research in test tube babies needs more investment then.

We might also want to lift the ban on surrogate mothers. That one hit me by surprise.

quote: Fourth, immigration from other countries of people who cannot get married in their home countries, coming to Canada just to get married.

Haven't you ever heard of the ideas of "gateway drugs" and/or "tourism"? There's no need to actually emigrate somewhere to get a marriage ceremony and, if they do, it doesn't really matter what gets them addicted to Canada.

quote: Fifth, what's going to happen with families? An affirmation of marriage between a man and a woman would finally show that a traditional family is something to be valued.

Eh? Are you following the the-unwashed-masses-aren't-paying-any-attention-to-me,-but-surely-they'll-care-what-a-bunch-of-fuddy-duddy-old-farts-on-Parliament-Hill-think train of thought?

	18-09-2003 06:30									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Are you Boddington's DL? Homophobes who claim they value family, have this narrow, constrictive view of what a family entails, so as to exclude homosexuals. They do not want to acknowledge the fact that many homosexuals do value family.

And homosexuals have narrow views of all those who disagree with them as homophobes. Why don't we get into the nitty-gritty facts that both sides have different views of what a family consists of, rather than assuming the homosexual position as more 'open'?

	18-09-2003 06:32									#96
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Krazyhorse:

quote: Ask yourself: If I ask 100 people in their twenties if they are regular internet users and then ask 100 people in their 70s the same question, will I get the same answer? Why not?

So there were no homosexuals 70 years ago, just as there were no internet users 70 years ago?

Interesting.

	18-09-2003 06:37									#97
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

ricketyclick:

quote: So, Ben, if this law is passed, you are going to cease heterosexual intercourse and become gay? I think this applies to a lot of homophobes.

That all the homophobes will switch? I think you need to rethink your position.

I'm more concerned about the children.

Secondly, how will this ruling improve the birthrate? For each union, everyone else would have to have at least 4 children, just to keep the population even.

quote: The evidence is stacking up

You calling my bluff?

I'm happy to provide testimonies from people who have left the gay lifestyle if people will accept the testimonies as evidence.

	18-09-2003 06:37									#98
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Either everyone who wants to get married should be allowed to get married or no one should have their marriage recognized by the state.

BTW, the USSR was the first country to recognize gay marriage in modern times, though that changed under Uncle Joe.

	18-09-2003 06:39									#99
	Increase Your PM Length

What about incest, or polygamy, Che?

Should we marry people just because they demand to be married, regardless of previous commitments?

	18-09-2003 06:42									#100
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: marriage is a sacred and holy bond. it was once, and always has been between a man and a woman. but times change, and unless straight people can once again show that marriage is what they say it is, then they really have no business being so hypocritical.

Qcubed:

I agree wholeheartedly.

The increase in the divorce rate, is not independent from these further demands. Marriage has been weakened for some time so why not change the definition all together?

	18-09-2003 06:45									#101
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

St. Leo:

quote: I guess research in test tube babies needs more investment then. We might also want to lift the ban on surrogate mothers. That one hit me by surprise.

Eh, your jabs miss the mark. I'm not Catholic yet, and I support both of these causes, provided adequate safeguards are imposed to prevent abuses.

quote: Are you following the the-unwashed-masses-aren't-paying-any-attention-to-me,-but-surely-they'll-care-what-a-bunch-of-fuddy-duddy-old-farts-on-Parliament-Hill-think train of thought?

Parody demands real skill, which I fear you lack.

	18-09-2003 06:48									#102
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What about incest, or polygamy, Che? Should we marry people just because they demand to be married, regardless of previous commitments?

I believe that sexual orienation is not a strong indicator on how committed-inclined a man/woman can be.

Rather, it's the societal environment, and a person's individual values that will determine how well they can commit.



Who are you to judge, and say whether an entire group of diverse individuals cannot commit?

	18-09-2003 06:53									#103
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What about incest, or polygamy, Che? Should we marry people just because they demand to be married, regardless of previous commitments?

While adult incest makes me uncomfortable, I can't see any good legal reason for it to be outlawed, aside from a slight increase in the possibility birth defects if they have children.

Polygamy is legal in many parts of the world, at least bigmany is. If a Moslem with four wives moved to Canada, should he be forced to divorce three of them?

	18-09-2003 06:55									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I'm happy to provide testimonies from people who have left the gay lifestyle if people will accept the testimonies as evidence.

We only accept testamonies from people who have come out of the closet. The others are simply homophobic, right wing, nut cases.

	18-09-2003 06:56									#105
	Increase the size of your Attachments

homosexuals are known to have commitment problems

it remains to be seen if that is just because society does not support them the way it does heterosexual couples, though (with marriage and other such things)

Jon Miller

	18-09-2003 06:57									#106
	Put an end to popups!

Jon Miller -- how do you expect a minority group to react to society when society says they are not to have any legitimate recognition for their relationships?

	18-09-2003 07:02									#107
	Got spare money?

I said that I support unions for homosexuals (be they called marriage or something else, I do not care)

I personally think that that would help the commitment issues (I have not seen any data on places where there is such measures, so I am not sure if it will)

Jon Miller

	18-09-2003 07:08									#108
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller homosexuals are known to have commitment problems

As opposed to heterosexuals, half of whose marriages end in divorce (in one Island chain in the Indian Ocean, the Moslem residents average three divorces), to say nothing of all the dating relationships that break up.

	18-09-2003 07:12									#109
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

if you look at data from studies you will fine that homosexuals will on average have more partners of the opposite sex than heterosexuals will have partners period and will have more partners of the same sex than they have of the opposite sex

also average relationship length is lower

I am not saying that homosexuality causes commitment problems (it seems probable that it is caused by societies treatment of homosexuals), I am merely stating that currently the relationship exists

Jon Miller

	18-09-2003 07:18									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You should state men have committment problems, cuz I don't see lesbians having lots of partners. I do see lots of straight and gay men philandering, and I also see lots of straight and gay married men being mongamous.

In fact, I find the argument ridiculous. Gay people aren't allowed to have a legally recognized monogamous relationship beacuse they're too promiscuous? If that's the case, why are they trying to get married!?!

	18-09-2003 07:18									#111
	Support Apolyton

When did you do this research of yours, Jon Miller?

I would love to read your so-called report on the sociological studies you did on homosexuals.

	18-09-2003 07:20									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Jesus, Mr. Fun. Jon never claimed to be doing studies himself. Calm the **** down.

	18-09-2003 07:22									#113
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hey, being attacked by raptors in the Apolyton coffee shop tends to raise my blood pressure just A BIT.

	18-09-2003 07:47									#114
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Eh, your jabs miss the mark. I'm not Catholic yet, and I support both of these causes, provided adequate safeguards are imposed to prevent abuses.

I'm not out for blood here. Feel free to agree with me.

quote: quote: Are you following the the-unwashed-masses-aren't-paying-any-attention-to-me,-but-surely-they'll-care-what-a-bunch-of-fuddy-duddy-old-farts-on-Parliament-Hill-think train of thought? Parody demands real skill, which I fear you lack.

Teach me the art of satire, oh renowned sage of the Unholy Dark Side of Evilish Evil.

	18-09-2003 08:02									#115
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: marriage is a sacred and holy bond. it was once, and always has been between a man and a woman. but times change, and unless straight people can once again show that marriage is what they say it is, then they really have no business being so hypocritical.

Two-Spirit People, Nadleeh, and Berdache in Native American Culture

Apparently not. My anthro textbook referred to this, so this is not just a lone crank site.

Greg Egan quote time!

"Screw all known human cultures." - Greg Egan, Distress

Note: WASPs are a culture too.

	18-09-2003 08:04									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah marriage is so "sacred" that 50% of heteros bail out when they run into problems, cause they can't be arsed to work things out with the person they supposedly wanted to be with "till death do us part."

	18-09-2003 09:04									#117
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Yeah marriage is so "sacred" that 50% of heteros bail out when they run into problems, cause they can't be arsed to work things out with the person they supposedly wanted to be with "till death do us part."

This just goes to show that marriage as an institution is already in dire straits. If you actually think marriage is a valuable thing for society, the last thing you should want to do right now is let a bunch of dudes get married and kill the whole thing off once and for all.

	18-09-2003 09:06									#118
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Yeah marriage is so "sacred" that 50% of heteros bail out when they run into problems, cause they can't be arsed to work things out with the person they supposedly wanted to be with "till death do us part." This just goes to show that marriage as an institution is already in dire straits. If you actually think marriage is a valuable thing for society, the last thing you should want to do right now is let a bunch of dudes get married and kill the whole thing off once and for all.

Why do you cling to this heterosexist prejudice that monogamous homosexuals who marry will ruin the institution??

	18-09-2003 09:09									#119
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, I think completely abandoning the traditional definition of marriage might affect the instititution somewhat. Call me crazy.

Not that I really care. I never said I wanted to save the institution of marriage.

	18-09-2003 09:14									#120
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

This is nothing but a slippery slope argument to make such a gross presumption that monogamous homosexuals who marry will degrade marriage as an institution.

And besides that, I prefer advocating for legally recognized civil unions -- not marriages. But if we are to discuss the possibility with marriage, don't make such slippery slope arguments that are based on gross presumptions and heterosexism.