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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
Sure Floyd... but I judge people by their actions. Capitalism is irrelevant to Christianity as it didn't exist until over 1500 years after Christ allegedly existed. |
All economic systems are irrelevant to Christianity, as Jesus never supported ANY economic system - he wasn't interested. However, you CAN say that the Bible's overall message supports freedom.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
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quote:
All economic systems are irrelevant to Christianity, as Jesus never supported ANY economic system - he wasn't interested. However, you CAN say that the Bible's overall message supports freedom. |
a little... but it also supports treating women as objects... adultery is considered a crime against property, and in Genesis, woman is "created" from a piece of man. The bible also supports genocidal wars.
Because I come from the Orthodox teachings, I tend to think we should focus on the good and what's fair. Let me ask you, do you think Jesus would support a system that is based upon inequality and Social darwinism like Capitalism? Personally, I don't think he would. But then again, my opinion of the mythical Jesus comes from the good parts of the Bible... love thy neighbor, treat everyone fair, etc...
I think the general language and the sheer diversity of interpretation of Christianity discredits it as "truth". I don't put much stock into the Bible. It was written by people. And if you believe in God as your creator, you must accept that he created us with free will and the ability to reason morality for ourselves. It's quite obvious that the imperfections in Christianity suggest it is a man-made religion and not the will of any God. 
But having said that, Capitalism, with its history of inequality, abuse, social darwinism, and being based upon a sin (greed) makes me think Jesus wouldn't be so supportive of it. But hey that's my opinion. You obviously have your own ideas.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
a little... but it also supports treating women as objects... adultery is considered a crime against property, and in Genesis, woman is "created" from a piece of man. The bible also supports genocidal wars. |
Remember that there is a huge difference between the OT and NT. The OT is largely irrelevant.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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No, the OT was basically Judaic law, and doesn't apply to Christians living in the aftermath of the Crucifixion/Resurrection, etc.
Although you are correct in that the OT supports some major atrocities, stuff that I wouldn't do even if God specifically and "in person" told me to do.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
If the OT doesn't apply, then why not delete it? |
There are elements in the OT, such as prophecy, proverbs, things of that nature, that ARE valuable. Much of it also provides historicaly background. However, it is incontestable that the law laid down in the OT is JUDAIC law, not applicable to the Gentiles of the time, and certainly not to modern Christians (by which I mean Christians living after Christ).
It's also not a matter of "selective beliefs". I believe that the events in the OT happened. Wow. That doesn't mean a whole lot, though, if the law in the OT doesn't apply to me.
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Zulu Elephant
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Just thouht I'd post this as a reply to all those screaming nonsense about the bible nowhere telling us to give away our money
Matthew 19: 16-21
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
19Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'[4] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[5] "
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:30
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quote:
It sounds like anyone who doesn't do so isn't following the teachings of Christ. |
No, that verse is simply an illustration of why many people are not able to pick God over money. The Bible says that man cannot serve two masters (God and money), and that verse is an illustration of that point.
In any case, the Bible also acknowledges that no one is perfect.
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Zulu Elephant
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
In any case, the Bible also acknowledges that no one is perfect. |
Yes, but it says that we should still all strive to be perfect even though it is always out of our reach.
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
No, that verse is simply an illustration of why many people are not able to pick God over money. The Bible says that man cannot serve two masters (God and money), and that verse is an illustration of that point. |
So I am right.
quote:
In any case, the Bible also acknowledges that no one is perfect. |
Well duh... the problem I have with many denominations is that they teach that you will NOT be judged on your overall life, but rather, only if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior... even as late as your deathbed. And I have a problem with that. I don't believe that God lets someone like Hitler into heaven just because he accepts Jesus. I think if there is an afterlife,etc, that one is judged based upon one's entire life, not just a deathbed acceptance of Jesus.
Most protestant denominations that teach silly things like that sound like corrupt lawyers searching for loopholes. And God, if he's omnipotent and perfect and everything, doesn't allow loopholes.
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Dr Strangelove
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by JohnT
You mean stuff like this, MikeH?
It might be instructive to read the entire 25th chapter of Matthew's Gospel. Jesus is describing the kingdom of heaven. The chapter begins with the parable of the virgins waiting for the marriage ceremony. Those who keep their lamps burning are admitted, and those who do not are sent away as if they were not invited. Then follows the parable of the servants given "talents" by the master as you related. Remeber that this is a parable. Just as Christ was obviously not talking about the care of oil lamps in the first parable told within this chapter, it's obvious that he's not really talking about investment strategies in this parable. Instead he's admonishing the listeners to keep constant care of their souls. In the first parable he's telling the audience that we should live each day as if it might be our last, and not to compromise our believes. but instead to keep the lamp of our faith trimmed at all times. In the second parable he's admonishing us to give of ourselves, our talents, regardless of how great or how meager they are. He rebukes the man who buried his talents because the man defames him (God) by accusing God of being harsh and unreasonable.
The parable is about spirituality, not economics.
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Giant_Squid
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Fun Guy from Yuggoth
Jan 1970
time: 00:30
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quote:
Jesus would not be in favor of forcing anyone to donate, and he would not be in favor of socialist-type economic systems. Of course, he wouldn't specifically favor laissez-faire type economic systems, either, which is the whole point. Jesus wasn't interested in politics or economics or any of this kind of thing. However, Jesus' overall message emphasizes personal choice, rather than forced giving, so take that however you like. |
While I agree about him not being interested in politics or economics, I'm not sure that he would be so against forced giving. For example, he mentions that if a person steals your coat, give him your cloak also - that is, don't begrudge someone something just because they're stealing it from you. He also says "Render unto Caesar unto Caesar, and unto God what is God's" - so obviously he supported or at least didn't oppose some kind of compulsory taxation.
But I don't even think that's entirely the point of this comic. The point isn't that conservative ideas about taxation are contrary to Jesus' message, it's that a lot of the ideology of conservativism is. The part about how if he helped the lepers it would take away the incentive to avoid leprosy and they should help themselves is straight out of Republican rhetoric, but doesn't involve taxation a bit.
Funny funny comic, but I still prefer the Gospel of Cheesus the Dairy Messiah
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Giant_Squid
While I agree about him not being interested in politics or economics, I'm not sure that he would be so against forced giving. For example, he mentions that if a person steals your coat, give him your cloak also |
This means "return good for evil", not "be a sap that everyone takes advantage of".
quote:
He also says "Render unto Caesar unto Caesar, and unto God what is God's" - so obviously he supported or at least didn't oppose some kind of compulsory taxation. |
Considering the circumstances he was under at the time he said this, this can hardly be construed as Jesus economic policy.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:30
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quote:
The OT is largely irrelevant.
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David Floyd, you are not correct, in stating this. The OT is most relevant to Christians, although some parts less than others.
For example, look at what Jesus says about the Mosaic Law:
Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Now there are a great deal of arguments over which OT covenants also apply to Christians, but no one says that the entire OT does not apply.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:30
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Secondly, regarding the Parable of the rich man.
Mark 17-23:
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' "
"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"
The problem is not with possessions, but with letting possessions come ahead of God. Jesus urges the man to trust God.
Again, we see this ideal in Ecclesiastes 11:1
"Cast your bread upon the waters, for after many days you will find it again."
Also,
Matthew 6:31-33
"So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:30
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Zulu E - quote:
Just thouht I'd post this as a reply to all those screaming nonsense about the bible nowhere telling us to give away our money |
Can you quote someone here saying that?
Ben - quote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. |
And the law is?
quote:
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." |
And what were these commandments? Hint, there's 2 
but you know that.
quote:
Now there are a great deal of arguments over which OT covenants also apply to Christians, but no one says that the entire OT does not apply. |
That's a big problem, true? Which one's did Jesus say apply?
G Squid - quote:
For example, he mentions that if a person steals your coat, give him your cloak also - that is, don't begrudge someone something just because they're stealing it from you. |
I believe he said if someone asks you for your coat, give them your cloak too. He added something about walking more with them than they requested.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:30
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Berzerker:
Good question. The "Law" can mean different things depending on the context. Generally, it refers to the Mosaic law, 10 commandments. However, in Matthew 22, it seems to include the first part of the OT, the Pentateuch since the Jews called this portion the 'Law' since it summed up God's commands for good moral conduct.
These books include Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
quote:
And what were these commandments? Hint, there's 2
but you know that.
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Might as well cite the passage.
Matt 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
quote:
Which one's did Jesus say apply?
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He does not really get into that beyond my earlier post with the 'least stroke of the pen.'
As far as I see, the part of the OT that makes less sense for Christians than for Jews, are the sacrificial system, since Christ is to be the 'Passover lamb'. No further sacrifices are needed to atone for sin, since Christ's sacrifice has atoned for everyone.
The second part would have to do with the strictures on 'cleanness and uncleanness', again for the reasons above. Cleanness had great significance with respect to the sacrificial system, but less so without.
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19-09-2003 00:49
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