19-09-2003 08:21									#31
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Is it just me or was the Christian version the most confusingly worded?

	19-09-2003 08:27									#32
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Molly:

You could not have given better proof to Berz.

"do naught"
"Hurt not"
"What is hateful to you, do not"
"when it shall not do unto another"
"not do unto another"

All of these ask you to merely refrain from hurtful actions, precisely the statement of Berz.

The Hadith is an interesting passage.

"No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself"

A positive declaration, but it only asks you to want the same things your brother would want. It does not expect action.

Now, what does Jesus ask?

"All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.

Not 'desire', but 'do'.

However, I'm not a scholar of the hadiths, so I don't know if Molly has rendered the passage correctly as 'desires'.

	19-09-2003 08:31									#33
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quote: Is it just me or was the Christian version the most confusingly worded?

I believe Molly uses the KJV.

In the NIV, the same passage

Luke 6:31

"Do to others as you would have them do to you."

	19-09-2003 09:28									#34
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You missed the oldest appearance of the rule

Analects 5:12 "If I do not with others to do something to me, I wish not to do it to them"

	19-09-2003 09:30									#35
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Molly -

quote: Both: The Mahabharata: "This is the sum of duty: do naught to others which if done to thee would cause thee pain." And the Buddhist Udana-Varqa: "Hurt not others with that which pains yourself." It is also to be found in the Talmud: "What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire Law, all the rest is commentary." and in Zoroastrianism: "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is not good for its own self." Dadistan-i-Dinik And in Islam: "No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself." from the Hadiths. The passage from the Gospel of Matthew reads: "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law of the prophets."

As Ben points out, there is a distinction to be made between refraining from actions and as Jesus instructed, acting positively, but the thought is clearly very old with slight modifications. I know Buddha came after the Mahabharata and obviously both preceded Jesus and Mohammed, but the Talmud may be contemporaneous with the Hindu scripture. I believe both were written ~1400-1100 BC, but it seems obvious the concept goes much further back.

	19-09-2003 09:32									#36
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quote: You missed the oldest appearance of the rule Analects 5:12 "If I do not with others to do something to me, I wish not to do it to them"

Huh? Now that is confusing. Where does this come from?

	19-09-2003 09:34									#37
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Actually Ben, the hadith, as is writen there, says that only someone who wishes FOR the other what they whish for themselves is a true believer. For example: you wish to be rich? Then wish everyone else also be rich.

	19-09-2003 09:37									#38
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"Eh bien, tu l'as vu, ton Dieu, Iokanaan, mais moi, moi . . . tu ne m'as jamais vue. Si tu m'avais vue, tu m'aurais aimee. Moi, je t'ai vu, Iokanaan, et je t'ai aime. Oh! comme je t'ai aime. Je t'aime encore, Iokanaan. Je t'aime que toi . . . J'ai soif de ta beaute. J'ai faim de ton corps. Et ni le vin, ni les fruits ne peuvent apaiser mon desir. Que ferai-je, Iokanaan, maintenant? Ni les fleuves ni les grandes eaux, ne pourraient eteindre ma passion. J'etais une Princesse, tu m'as dedaignee. J'etais une vierge, tu m'as defloree. J'etais chaste, tu as rempli mes veines de feu . . . Ah! Ah! pourquoi ne m'as-tu pas regardee, Iokanaan? Si tu m'avais regardee tu m'aurais aimee. Je sais bien que tu m'aurais aimee, et le mystere de l'amour est plus grand que le mystere de la mort. Il ne faut regarder que l'amour."

Salome, Oscar Wilde

	19-09-2003 09:42									#39
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quote: Actually Ben, the hadith, as is writen there, says that only someone who wishes FOR the other what they whish for themselves is a true believer. For example: you wish to be rich? Then wish everyone else also be rich.

My critique stands. Wishing ! = Doing.

	19-09-2003 09:50									#40
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BUt if you do what you do not wish, then you are lying to yourself, no? Either your action is wrong, or your sentiment is.

I don't see the difference as significant as you make it out to be.

	19-09-2003 09:52									#41
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"Ah! wherefore didst thou not look at me, Iokanaan? With the cloak of thine hands, and with the cloak of thy blasphemies thou didst hide thy face. Thou didst put upon thine eyes the covering of him who would see his God. Well, thou hast seen thy God, Iokanaan, but me, me, thou didst never see. If thou hadst seen me thou hadst loved me. I saw thee, and I loved thee. Oh, how I loved thee! I love thee yet, Iokanaan. I love only thee . . . . I am athirst for thy beauty; I am hungry for thy body; and neither wine nor apples can appease my desire. What shall I do now, Iokanaan? Neither the floods nor the great waters can quench my passion. I was a princess, and thou didst scorn me. I was a virgin, and thou didst take my virginity from me. I was chaste, and thou didst fill my veins with fire . . . . Ah! ah! wherefore didst thou not look at me? If thou hadst looked at me thou hadst loved me. Well I know that thou wouldst have loved me, and the mystery of Love is greater than the mystery of Death."

Basically the same passage translated.

	19-09-2003 10:05									#42
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quote: BUt if you do what you do not wish, then you are lying to yourself, no?

Or otherwise, if you do not do what you wish to do? Yes that would be a hypocrite.

It reminds me of an old proverb.

"If wishes were horses, than beggars would ride."

	19-09-2003 10:15									#43
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I didn't know proverbs contained misspelling. Ah well, learn something new everyday!

	19-09-2003 10:57									#44
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A thread about literature and we turn to religious texts. That settles it, apolyton is the driest place EVER.

	19-09-2003 12:17									#45
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Not really literature, but I like it:

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

	19-09-2003 12:19									#46
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and one more, from Socrates:

"My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher."

	19-09-2003 13:03									#47
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The goals justify the means.

Machiavelli

	19-09-2003 13:20									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius and one more, from Socrates: "My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher."

Is that from Plato or Xenophon (I suspect the latter).

	19-09-2003 13:48									#49
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This gets me every time. Very powerful and moving IMHO.

quote: If we are mark'd to die, we are enow To do our country loss; and if to live, The fewer men, the greater share of honour. God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more. By Jove, I am not covetous for gold, Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost; It yearns me not if men my garments wear; Such outward things dwell not in my desires: But if it be a sin to covet honour, I am the most offending soul alive. No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England: God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour As one man more, methinks, would share from me For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more! Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host, That he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart; his passport shall be made And crowns for convoy put into his purse: We would not die in that man's company That fears his fellowship to die with us.

And the rest of that speech too, but I won't quote it all here.

	19-09-2003 13:50									#50
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Good call, FP. I'm no limey, but it does something to me as well. Gotta respect one of the best Frog killers of all time...

	19-09-2003 15:45									#51
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"The little sweet doth kill much bitternes" - Keats

	19-09-2003 16:09									#52
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"Space is big, no really big, you thought that it was a long way to the shops, well thats peanuts compared to space."

(more or less)

Douglas Adams

	19-09-2003 19:13									#53
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That's a really good one too!

*misses Douglas Adams *

	19-09-2003 19:28									#54
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"Vengence is Mine says the Lord; I shall repay".
Tolstoy

and
"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset" or "Kill them all. God will know His own." Caesarius
Later modified to "Kill them all and let God sort them out."

	19-09-2003 19:32									#55
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Well, if you're going to get all biblical vengeance and stuff, you should find something a bit more subtle, like the club dumas.

	19-09-2003 19:39									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sava that paragraph I quoted made more sense than Peter, Paul, Matthew, Luke... err... John... uhmm... Barry... uhmm... Bruce...

Let me ask you something Sava.
Do you think in my life-time I'll see the day when you can just post your opinion without belittling what I, in particular, or others in general, have said ?

Frankly, I have my doubts.

	19-09-2003 19:41									#57
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Let me ask you something Sava. Do you think in my life-time I'll see the day when you can just post your opinion without belittling what I, in particular, or others in general, have said ? Frankly, I have my doubts.

I don't recall saying anything to you. In fact, I was talking to Berz. I just gave you a Dizzy smiley because you are dizzy. Don't exagerrate your importance.

	19-09-2003 19:47									#58
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Thank you for confirming every point I made.

	19-09-2003 19:50									#59
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Thank you for confirming every point I made.

sigh... don't make the mistake of taking what I say personally. My opinions on religion have nothing to do with you. That's just the way I feel. Sorry if my opinions are offensive to you.

	19-09-2003 21:07									#60
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"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious" or so said Oscar Wilde.