19-09-2003 23:39									#31
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How contrary of you, Japher.

-Arrian

	19-09-2003 23:41									#32
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, I voted 1-20%

	19-09-2003 23:41									#33
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I get mad when my friends get twice the reward as me, whether or not they worked more than twice as much for the reward.

	20-09-2003 00:11									#34
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quote: The rich do pay more

Not in a flat tax system.

quote: They do? Are there special roads/services/police stations just for the rich? I guess I missed that... Do you ever stop and realize that the rich actually put more into the system than the poor do?

Lets put it this way. If there were no police, the poor would take everything the rich have. If there was no army, the rich wouldnt have any poor people to protect them. So yeah, the rich do get more from the government then the poor.

	20-09-2003 00:24									#35
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This just isn't analogous to current human society.

However, if you guys are going to argue over which group (rich or poor) pays more taxes, I think you need to set some criteria to divide one from the other. $X per year per person income, or something like that.

-Arrian

	20-09-2003 02:30									#36
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well it was either communism or religion. I guess this thread is sacrificed to communism

	20-09-2003 03:04									#37
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quote: Lets put it this way. If there were no police, the poor would take everything the rich have. If there was no army, the rich wouldnt have any poor people to protect them. So yeah, the rich do get more from the government then the poor.

You seem to think that the rich won't have their own private brute squads.

	20-09-2003 05:11									#38
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quote: Not in a flat tax system.

Yes they do. If you have a million dollars, 15% of that is far more than 15% of 40,000 dollars. In fact, 15% of a million dollars is 4 times as much as the SALARY of the guy who makes 40,000.

	21-09-2003 01:42									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Not in a flat tax system. Lets put it this way. If there were no police, the poor would take everything the rich have. If there was no army, the rich wouldnt have any poor people to protect them. So yeah, the rich do get more from the government then the poor.

No, the rich would hire their own little armies and enslave the poor. The task of the police is to teach the poor their proper place so that the rich won't have to openly make them slaves! So yes, the rich do get more out of their taxes because hey get slaves who believe that they are free, thereby saving the rich from the onus of owning slaves.

	21-09-2003 06:57									#40
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Actually, the monkey obviously wants all monkeys to get paid the same wage for the same effort..without being beholden to a market setting wages based on "market" needs...

The monkeys are Reds! Even nature disproves you Beserker.

	21-09-2003 07:23									#41
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quote: Actually, the monkey obviously wants all monkeys to get paid the same wage for the same effort..without being beholden to a market setting wages based on "market" needs...

You scoff at the term "market" as if it is imaginery. What a ****ing riot. When you get sick, you have no use for a janitor or a garbageman or a farm worker - you need a DOCTOR. You know, someone who went to school for 6, 7 years, had a hellish 3 year internship, and pulls 48 hour shifts while paying tens of thousands of dollars per year in insurance just for the ability to help sick people. And you're telling me the doctor doesn't deserve every penny he makes, or that the guy who sweeps the floors should be paid the same? ****, dude, I haven't laughed that hard in a while

	21-09-2003 07:27									#42
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You scoff at the term "market" as if it is imaginery. What a ****ing riot. When you get sick, you have no use for a janitor or a garbageman or a farm worker - you need a DOCTOR. You know, someone who went to school for 6, 7 years, had a hellish 3 year internship, and pulls 48 hour shifts while paying tens of thousands of dollars per year in insurance just for the ability to help sick people. And you're telling me the doctor doesn't deserve every penny he makes, or that the guy who sweeps the floors should be paid the same? ****, dude, I haven't laughed that hard in a while

He did say "for the same effort". Maybe the protesting monkey was a female, or a .............. whoa, I better not go there.

	21-09-2003 07:35									#43
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Define "effort". Arguable, a janitor who pulls a 48 hour shift sweeping the stairs on a 50 story building puts in a similar amount of effort as an on-call doctor pulling a 48 hour shift, at least in terms of labor, physical exhaustion, etc. Doesn't mean the janitor deserves the same wage, though.

	21-09-2003 07:53									#44
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You think the moneky gives a hoot? It felt it did the same amount of labor, effort, whatever, as monkey number two, but that monkey got more, so screw you guys, i will do nothing until I feel I am equally compensated..all you posted is 100% irrelevant to a monkey, which is what Bezerker tried to use as a lame libertarian troll..monkeys want equality, or to dominate, so if they are a measure of nature, libertarianism is an absurdity (at least, to monkey's), so take your empty ideological baggage to some creature stupid enough ot buy it..wait, you did, Man....

	21-09-2003 07:59									#45
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quote: You think the moneky gives a hoot? It felt it did the same amount of labor, effort, whatever, as monkey number two, but that monkey got more, so screw you guys, i will do nothing until I feel I am equally compensated

Precisely. The monkeys did the SAME labor. You're the one who implied that this meant the marketplace was unfair from the monkey's perspective. Hello! A monkey isn't that smart! Obviously a monkey understands that he deserves the same compensation for the same labor, and that this compensation shouldn't be taken away or withheld, but that's the extent of it.

Berzerker's point, I think, was simply that a monkey can understand SIMPLE principles of fairness, not more complex principles.

	21-09-2003 08:05									#46
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The monkey does not KNOW it did as much labor (what does he have, some timesheet?), he feels he did (which is not the same thing), and it is the feeling that mattered.

	21-09-2003 08:54									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Zero I get mad when my friends get twice the reward as me, whether or not they worked more than twice as much for the reward.

Like I have implied before, I dont think fairness has anything to do with why mokeys get mad when their fellows get mor ethan them. The fact that they get more is a reason enough to get mad, whether they worked fair amount for it or did 3,4 times the amount of work to get more reward.

	21-09-2003 09:25									#48
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quote: The monkey does not KNOW it did as much labor (what does he have, some timesheet?), he feels he did (which is not the same thing), and it is the feeling that mattered.

They pull or push a lever for the treat and the researchers watched their reactions as they watched each other use the lever and what they got in return.

	22-09-2003 05:03									#49
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How is that labor? It is an action, reward situation. If I reach my hand into a bag and get 1 dime, and the guy next to me reaches into a bag and gets a dollar, like hell I will continue to take out of my bag! I will try to get some from his! And I would be angry if I reched into a bag and got a dime, and then the guy comes and draws a dollar form the same bag...but the issue of labor???

You really did strech this example, didn't you?

	22-09-2003 05:04									#50
	Monkeys Understand Fairness Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

unlike a lot of people

	22-09-2003 08:07									#51
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quote: How is that labor? It is an action, reward situation.

Did you expect the monkeys to dig a ditch or build a house? Labor is an action-reward situation so what's your point?

quote: If I reach my hand into a bag and get 1 dime, and the guy next to me reaches into a bag and gets a dollar, like hell I will continue to take out of my bag! I will try to get some from his!

Sigh, the monkeys don't have bags of their own, they are given treats for their effort.

quote: You really did strech this example, didn't you?

Nope, pulling or pushing a lever in exchange for a reward is what "labor" is all about - effort translated into wealth. Is it your contention that I've "stretched" this example because you don't think the monkeys were doing enough labor? Complain to the researchers...

	22-09-2003 08:11									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Life ain't fair, and neither are taxes (no matter how much), sitting around living with this type of attitude will get you know where... Become rich and then we'll see what you are complaining about.

Hey -- ever hear of corporate welfare??

	22-09-2003 08:40									#53
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quote: Labor is an action-reward situation so what's your point?

No it is not..a slave is a laborer, and gets no reward for his labor. So while compensation is the most common outcome, it is not absolute. Most importantly, 'labor" assumes a bunch of socially constructed economic relations. By your definition, any action meant to give any reward is labor..like making a model set, or a sandwich, or lighting a cigarrete, breathing.....

Now, I would love to get fair pay for my acting to stay alive (nice reward), but that ain't going to happen.

Oh, and monkeys, as selfish and self-scentered as they are are not libertarians.