27-09-2003 02:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Sure there is. Unions are the basis of a free society. Worker and non-worker organization is a prerequisite for a free society. Economic self-determination is a fundamental right.

ur adding all sorts of values into democracy that don't have to exist. if u can't realize this then u r seriously deprived of perspective.


unions are a useful countermeasure to corporate power. they are not some inherent part of a democracy. so just hush.

	27-09-2003 02:52									#32
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If you think democracy is the same thing as having elections, you are seriously deprived of perspective.

	27-09-2003 02:54									#33
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Would you prefer:
Then good for them. If we don't want unions, we should drop the pretense of bringing freedom to Iraq. Likewise if we can't tolerate peaceful protest, we should drop the pretense of bringing freedom.

	27-09-2003 02:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo If you think democracy is the same thing as having elections, you are seriously deprived of perspective.

u r obviously extremely culturally egotistical. I think democracy is having fair and cyclical elections. what the ppl actually want is up to them. in either case tho. we are setting up FOR a democracy. not actually practicing one yet.

so ur wrong twice. which is a definite feat of merit.

	27-09-2003 02:55									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Would you prefer: Then good for them. If we don't want unions, we should drop the pretense of bringing freedom to Iraq. Likewise if we can't tolerate peaceful protest, we should drop the pretense of bringing freedom.

I agree, we should tolerate all peaceful protest.

	27-09-2003 02:58									#36
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What the people want is to organize. That's why there exists a union of the unemployed. Hence, the occupation authorities's actions are extremely anti-democratic. Thus, you are wrong.

Building a civil society when worker organizations are crushed doesn't work. If we are "setting up for democracy," we're doing it incompetently.

	27-09-2003 03:01									#37
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Worker organization is the most fundamental form of democracy as they are the entities in civil society most directly controlled by the people.

	27-09-2003 03:02									#38
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Just a question, does "freedom of the press" extend to foreign media? I recall no decision precisely on point.

	27-09-2003 03:03									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What the people want is to organize. That's why there exists a union of the unemployed. Hence, the occupation authorities's actions are extremely anti-democratic. Thus, you are wrong. Building a civil society when worker organizations are crushed doesn't work. If we are "setting up for democracy," we're doing it incompetently.

once they start elections they can form all the unions their lil hearts desire. this is transition not the practice. and actually democracy allows tyranny of the majority. we never said we were going to give them a "civil society"(imagine the cultural backlash against that?). only that we'd give them a democracy.

so u have no ground to stand on.

	27-09-2003 03:04									#40
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You mean in the US? Foreign press has the same rights as domestic press over here.

	27-09-2003 03:08									#41
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quote: once they start elections they can form all the unions their lil hearts desire. this is transition not the practice. and actually democracy allows tyranny of the majority. we never said we were going to give them a "civil society"(imagine the cultural backlash against that?). only that we'd give them a democracy.

A democracy won't last without a civil society, and independent unions are one of its bases. If the state is given authoritarian powers during the occupation it will likely keep them.

And actual democracy is that peoples' liberties are respected by the state.

	27-09-2003 03:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo A democracy won't last without a civil society, and independent unions are one of its bases. If the state is given authoritarian powers during the occupation it will likely keep them. And actual democracy is that peoples' liberties are respected by the state.

no. u have to stop adding values to "democracy." democracy is the will of the ppl. insofar as the elections can be kept fair and cyclical. the rest of the pie is completely up to the ppl. thats the point.
u keep demanding things that aren't required. they are what you want in a society, not whats required in a democracy.

distinctly different.

I also assume that after the occupation the arabs will want to frame and handle as they see fit. which is the point of giving power over to elections. all this whining is not only off base, its also premature.

	27-09-2003 03:19									#43
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quote: no. u have to stop adding values to "democracy." democracy is the will of the ppl. insofar as the elections can be kept fair and cyclical. the rest of the pie is completely up to the ppl. thats the point. u keep demanding things that aren't required. they are what you want in a society, not whats required in a democracy. distinctly different.

Democracy is that the will of the people is reflected in the government. If people want to form a paper free from gov't intrusion or if people want to organize to get a livable wage or not have their oil go off to subisidize US corporations that don't even hire native Iraqis, they should be free to do that in a democracy. That's how it works. The government isn't the only institution that reflects popular will - it's reflected in newspapers and unions as well.

quote: I also assume that after the occupation the arabs will want to frame and handle as they see fit. which is the point of giving power over to elections. all this whining is not only off base, its also premature.

It's absolutely wrong the the US is tyrannically attacking Iraqi liberties - without any electoral mandate mind you. It's hurting Iraqis and their nascent civil society. This "whining" is neither off-base nor premature.

	27-09-2003 03:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo You mean in the US? Foreign press has the same rights as domestic press over here.

I find that hard to believe, for obvious reasons. I am sure the press from all Axis powers were banned during WWII, for example.

	27-09-2003 03:22									#45
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Our rights in 2003 are not the same as our rights in 1942.

	27-09-2003 03:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Democracy is that the will of the people is reflected in the government. If people want to form a paper free from gov't intrusion or if people want to organize to get a livable wage or not have their oil go off to subisidize US corporations that don't even hire native Iraqis, they should be free to do that in a democracy. That's how it works. The government isn't the only institution that reflects popular will - it's reflected in newspapers and unions as well. It's absolutely wrong the the US is tyrannically attacking Iraqi liberties - without any electoral mandate mind you. It's hurting Iraqis and their nascent civil society. This "whining" is neither off-base nor premature.

ur absolutely right. and when elections start the iraqi's can start demonstrating that will. thats the tool of democracy. and the ppl can decide how their will is reflected.

once elections start.

we are not attacking their liberties they are living in the ashes of post war and post oppression. there is a transition time. if we come back and the gov't is being run corruptively and subversively defying or tainting elections then I will listen to ur rants. but elections have never been held yet.

	27-09-2003 03:24									#47
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But we're running the government corruptively and tyrannically. Without any elections. We're undermining their expressions of democracy.

And we are attacking their liberties. What else do you call our behavior wrt the union of the unemployed?

	27-09-2003 03:27									#48
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Also, NBC news was bombed yesterday. Why?

	27-09-2003 03:32									#49
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I heard the problem with these two news organizations their continuing cooperation with the Baathists. If this is true, they are engaged in sabatoge and propaganda, not news.

	27-09-2003 03:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo But we're running the government corruptively and tyrannically. Without any elections. We're undermining their expressions of democracy. And we are attacking their liberties. What else do you call our behavior wrt the union of the unemployed?

there was bound to be a transition time. democracy is a luxury. we want to give the iraqi's that luxury. but its not an instant thing.

	27-09-2003 03:36									#51
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The "problem" is that they tell the entire story with regards to the Ba'athists. It's bullshit to call it sabatoge or propaganda.

	27-09-2003 03:37									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo But we're running the government corruptively and tyrannically. Without any elections. We're undermining their expressions of democracy. And we are attacking their liberties. What else do you call our behavior wrt the union of the unemployed?

I think the union of the unemployed is an oxymoron

afterall the weapon of the union is striking. the weapon of the union isnt demanding to be hired.

	27-09-2003 03:38									#53
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quote: there was bound to be a transition time. democracy is a luxury. we want to give the iraqi's that luxury. but its not an instant thing.

What the hell does that mean? Unions should be suppressed because of "transition time?" Why, exactly, are worker organizations a luxury? To maximize the pork we give to our corporations?

	27-09-2003 03:39									#54
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Their weapon is protest. Their goal is different from a traditional union (i.e. more just occupation policies).

	27-09-2003 03:43									#55
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Ramo, admit it. The NBC bombing was in retaliation to the banning of the Arab media.

Now, who in Iraq was offended by the banning? Who has the bombs?

	27-09-2003 03:45									#56
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It's bald assertion/wacko conspiracy theory time. Proof please.

	27-09-2003 03:50									#57
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I have no proof, Ramo. It is also funny that NBC simply reported the bombing itself without any questioning as to why they were targeted. But it is quite obvious that they are American media. Someone targeted them. The people who are blowing things up are the Baathists. And the Arab media was just banned.

But, like I say, I have no evidence that more than the above that the bombing was in retaliation.

	27-09-2003 03:52									#58
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Actually, NBC was bombed by the US because it was afraid they'd report on the law, to intimidate them.

	27-09-2003 04:02									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What the hell does that mean? Unions should be suppressed because of "transition time?" Why, exactly, are worker organizations a luxury? To maximize the pork we give to our corporations?

to minimize the costs bore by the US in giving iraq its democracy.

	27-09-2003 04:03									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Their weapon is protest. Their goal is different from a traditional union (i.e. more just occupation policies).

yes I never said they shouldn't be allowed to protest. but I'm hesitant to call them a union. unions can go on strike. they can't.