29-09-2003 15:34									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Heh, and this is where having a power-crazed communist dictator comes in handy. Ours filled the country with dozens of coal/oil/gas burning power plants, hydro plants and even started building a nuclear power plant before he was executed. Now, with only 2 out of 4 reactors ready and running at full capacity, we have more than enough electricity. The only real problem was this summer, when, because of the drought (sp?), there was not enough water in the Danube for the nuke plant or in the inner rivers for the hydro plants. The answer was to fire up the old coal burning plants and shut down all factories that were behind with paying their electricity bills.

Speaking of Greece, about 3 or 4 months ago, I heard they were getting ready to import electricity from Romania, and we cancelled exports when we had to shut down the nuke plant, so, probably, they couldn't have helped much.
Anyway, it's nice that everything is back to normal.

	29-09-2003 15:42									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The real problem seems to be the vulnerability of the transmission lines. I have long wondered why terrorists don't destroy power lines more often. That would be extremely disruptive.

	29-09-2003 16:29									#33
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The real problem seems to be the vulnerability of the transmission lines. I have long wondered why terrorists don't destroy power lines more often. That would be extremely disruptive.

Well, it's one thing to plant a bomb in the middle of a city square full with people and it's another to destroy some wires in the middle of nowhere. Guess which one causes the strongest impression on the masses. Furthermore, the second method wouldn't even get prime time on the news, the most coverage it would get would be a side note about some freak accident in a place nobody heard about.
Plus, the consequences of power line sabotage are not immediately evident, even if more disastruous in the long run.
IMHO terrorists are after immediate public attention.

	29-09-2003 17:20									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I found is quite amusing that Berlusconi's comment to the blackouts in the US a few months ago was something along the lines of "Such a thing could never happen in Italy!". I guess you have to be an italian with a public office to believe such a statement.

	29-09-2003 17:21									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Not being able to watch the latest episode of their favourite TV soap drivel has an immediate impact on the masses as soon as they find out why.

	29-09-2003 17:23									#36
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ned I suppose the enemy of construction of new power plants and transmission lines in Italy are the leftist parties, just as they are here in the United States. A large part of the anger here in California against Davis is because everyone here knows the left is the cause of our power problems. One can keep up this anti-capitalist program only so long. In the end, the infrastructure will collapse. It looks like Europe is now feeling the effects of leftist politics.

Dunno about Italy but most of the UK's power shortage problems now are blamed on underinvestment in infrastructure after the power companies were privatised. Hardly the left's fault.

	29-09-2003 17:56									#37
	Remove this text

Talking of power shortage problems in the UK, the media are currently trying to make us believe there may be problems tonight due to a power surge caused by huge numbers of people tuning in to watch the reture of Dirty Den on Eastenders. Somehow I doubt this will be a problem at all...I mean, think of the numbers that tune in to watch Football games, moon landing etc. Interesting piece of publicity though.

	29-09-2003 17:56									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dr. A. Cula Well, it's one thing to plant a bomb in the middle of a city square full with people and it's another to destroy some wires in the middle of nowhere. Guess which one causes the strongest impression on the masses. Furthermore, the second method wouldn't even get prime time on the news, the most coverage it would get would be a side note about some freak accident in a place nobody heard about. Plus, the consequences of power line sabotage are not immediately evident, even if more disastruous in the long run. IMHO terrorists are after immediate public attention.

It's more than that -- the risk / benefit curve is pretty steep. Do you know what happens when you even get near a high-tension line? There's a reason they're up as high as they are.

	29-09-2003 18:04									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually the lefty parties in italy are to blame- one day they block the building of hydrodamns and natural gas power plants because of the backing of the Green Party, the next they complain about energy shortages- I think that in Torino 2006 Olympics we'll see a hell lot of fun

	29-09-2003 18:16									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit Actually the lefty parties in italy are to blame...

Pretty sure at least part of the blame for recent world wide power cuts is private companies cutting down on spare capacity and repair engineers.

Don't blame the left for that... but your other points are true enough.

	29-09-2003 18:47									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If by "cutting back on reserve capacity" you mean "not building plants to keep up with expanding demand so that there is reserve capacity", I agree.

	29-09-2003 20:28									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Pretty sure at least part of the blame for recent world wide power cuts is private companies cutting down on spare capacity and repair engineers

There are no private companieS in Italy! just a monopoly of one single company in key services providers such as phone, energy, gas and water companies- and these are the results.. the positive aspect indeed is that now there's a strong backing (within some members of the moderate lefty parties) for a comeback to nuclear power- after all, we are surrounded by countries using nuclear power plants (France, Switzerland) and a disaster wouldn't bother about national borders anyway

	29-09-2003 20:37									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Perque the left would oppose the building of hydroplants? Perque?

	29-09-2003 20:42									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Perque the left would oppose the building of hydroplants? Perque?

destroys natural habitat on a local basis.

Yes, I don't care, either. ( But we don't have the rivers to care. )

	29-09-2003 21:27									#45
	mostly done already Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Most of the good sites for hydro-electric have already been developed. It is one of the cheapest sources of energy there is. The remaining sites mostly have some major disadvantage or other that has marked them as marginal.

	29-09-2003 22:05									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I wonder if this has anything to do with the black out on the East Coast of the United States. This is just to strange. You never know, someone may be hacking into the power grid and shuting the power down.

	29-09-2003 22:19									#47
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by MikeH Dunno about Italy but most of the UK's power shortage problems now are blamed on underinvestment in infrastructure after the power companies were privatised. Hardly the left's fault.

Mike, ditto the US. The reason for lack of investment here is that the power lines are "regulated." They are treated as a public resource and prices are controlled. Thus, the private sector does not invest in new capacity.

Something similar has happened in telecom. Several years ago, the FCC ruled that telephone companies would have to share new high speed transmission lines with competitors - this even while cable and sattelite companies do not. As a result, telecom companies virtually halted construction of high speed optical transmission lines. In fact, it was this FCC ruling that set off the stock market collapse.

But where is this demand for "regulation" and "sharing" coming from? Surely not the free market right?

	29-09-2003 22:25									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ned Mike, ditto the US. The reason for lack of investment here is that the power lines are "regulated." They are treated as a public resource and prices are controlled. Thus, the private sector does not invest in new capacity. Something similar has happened in telecom. Several years ago, the FCC ruled that telephone companies would have to share new high speed transmission lines with competitors - this even while cable and sattelite companies do not. As a result, telecom companies virtually halted construction of high speed optical transmission lines. In fact, it was this FCC ruling that set off the stock market collapse. But where is this demand for "regulation" and "sharing" coming from? Surely not the free market right?

Also you forget that scare in the mid 90's that power lines caused cancer and was latter proved false. Many people still have that stuck in their minds and dont want power lines near their houses. So since their is such a resistance to building them, they choise not to do it.

	29-09-2003 22:33									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

Did you know that just before the power crisis hit here in California we shut down a perfectly good nuclear reactor?

And, even while Owl Gore did not succeed, Gore strongly advocated shutting down hydroelectric dams (or not building new ones) in the Northwest because the dams disrupted salmon runs.

Yeah, the left cares more about fish and the environment than people. But it fits a larger anti-capitalist pattern of the left where any new investment in infrastructure of almost any type is to be opposed. There is a proposition on the ballot in California, prop 53, that requires the government to spend at least 3% on infrastructure. The reason for this is that the Democrat/Greens have cut infrastructure spending here to near zero. In the recent recall debate, all the leftist candidates opposed prop 53 and the Republican candidates favored it.

The divide between left and right on essential infrastructure here in the US is remarkable. The lack of investment is the cause of our increasing difficulties as a nation. We lack power transmission capacity, our roads are crowded beyond belief, and we are increasingly dependent on foreign oil.

At least here in California, the people know who is the cause of their higher electric bills. It is time for payback from the people.

	29-09-2003 22:37									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: But where is this demand for "regulation" and "sharing" coming from? Surely not the free market right?

That's just faulty regulation. In any case, the right way would be to let a govt. corporation do the job, like we do it around here.

	29-09-2003 22:47									#51
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: But where is this demand for "regulation" and "sharing" coming from? Surely not the free market right? That's just faulty regulation. In any case, the right way would be to let a govt. corporation do the job, like we do it around here.

Perhaps. But is wrong to blame the private sector for underinvestment in a regulated resource.

Also did you know that construction of new railroad lines in the United States virtually ended when we created the ICC and began to regulate railroad prices?

	29-09-2003 22:49									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, but do you need more railroad lines?

	29-09-2003 22:56									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Azazel, How does one determine when one has enough? I simply look at Japan to see just how much railroad contributed to that society. Of course, the railroads are privately owned and profitable. The average worker can live 90-100 miles from downtown and be wisked in high-speed comfort to his job in minutes. In the US, some who live near railway lines have this privilege. But only in cities where there are significant investment in railway lines, which primarily exist in the older cities of the East. Newer cities total rely on the car. As a result, we have congestion, polution and unbearable traffic jams.

	29-09-2003 23:06									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

you don't really compare the population density in Japan and US, do you?

	29-09-2003 23:11									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How about the population density in Southern California and Japan?

	29-09-2003 23:12									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What about it?

	29-09-2003 23:15									#57
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Personally, I think you should've let Amtrack build it, and make it cheap by subsidies. would solve SO MUCH of the traffic conjestion, and pollution problems over there.

	29-09-2003 23:23									#58
	Put an end to popups!

Azazel, the only solution is for the government to get out of the railroad business entirely except to extent that it approves right-of-ways and uses the power of eminent domain.

	30-09-2003 13:21									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I don't know about the rest of you, but the high tension lines near me are really, really high. The towers...well, tower above any nearby tree, and the land around them are clearcut to boot -- ever notice you can see where the lines are even if they are too far away to actually see the lines? Those clearcut strips really stand out.

Unless things are really different in Switzerland -- and Ohio, for that matter -- something just dosen't add up.