29-09-2003 06:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO What about the individual that has great ability and little need? What would the commies call him, if not a slave, under this ludicrous statement.

Your error is your ingrained capitalistic worldview, which makes you assume that everything you do must have a price tag, to be exchanged for material compensation for yourself.

To look at this a bit further, most people's capability to produce goods are pretty much within a narrow spectrum, esp. when high degrees of automation is involved.

	29-09-2003 06:22									#32
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quote: Originally posted by GePap "Desires"? why desires? People invariably want more than they have, in fact, usually more than they can get under their current life. Desire is a fine endless line to unhappiness. The Buddhist are right when it comes to desire.

Okay...To each according to their wants, from each according to their 'want to'"

	29-09-2003 06:26									#33
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Why would a human being not want to work to the full potential of their ability? In theory, there is one thing people are really good at, which also is what they would be happiest doing. This one thing though might not be an occupation which is profitable or capable of meeting their basic needs in a system which does not supply everyone with their basic needs. So how is it better to have a system were you might NOT be able to find true happiness doing what you are best at and happiest at becuase you must sacrifice that in order to take a profitable job? This in essence was part of Marx's romanticism....the idea he put forward of ebing ablt to do anything at any time of the day without having to worry about meeting your substinance, or how much you labor would fetch on the open market.

	29-09-2003 06:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Your error is your ingrained capitalistic worldview, which makes you assume that everything you do must have a price tag, to be exchanged for material compensation for yourself. To look at this a bit further, most people's capability to produce goods are pretty much within a narrow spectrum, esp. when high degrees of automation is involved.

Baloney! Most people's abilities? Who do you exclude from the "most people" in a communist society. What about the person who can produce more (or less)?

In addition, every persons work does produce value...and that value differs greatly. I have been managing people for over 15 years and the one thing I know for sure is that their production levels vary drastically. How does a communist society reconcile this?

Further, How are each persons "needs" defined and who does the defining?

	29-09-2003 06:30									#35
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why would a human being not want to work to the full potential of their ability? In theory, there is one thing people are really good at, which also is what they would be happiest doing. This one thing though might not be an occupation which is profitable or capable of meeting their basic needs in a system which does not supply everyone with their basic needs. So how is it better to have a system were you might NOT be able to find true happiness doing what you are best at and happiest at becuase you must sacrifice that in order to take a profitable job? This in essence was part of Marx's romanticism....the idea he put forward of ebing ablt to do anything at any time of the day without having to worry about meeting your substinance, or how much you labor would fetch on the open market.

Marx was a romantic. Unfortunately, he was not a realist. What I am best at is sitting on a boat on the lake, drinking beer, and talking football. If Communism will give me this, then lets talk.

	29-09-2003 06:35									#36
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Marx was a romantic. Unfortunately, he was not a realist. What I am best at is sitting on a boat on the lake, drinking beer, and talking football. If Communism will give me this, then lets talk.

Fisherman, beer taster. (yeah, alright... a stretch ) and sports commentator.

	29-09-2003 06:40									#37
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Marx was a romantic. Unfortunately, he was not a realist. What I am best at is sitting on a boat on the lake, drinking beer, and talking football. If Communism will give me this, then lets talk.

I don't think Marx ment EVERYTHING. not everyone can be president of the US. Don't take a mile if we give you inch.

	29-09-2003 06:46									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I don't think Marx ment EVERYTHING. not everyone can be president of the US. Don't take a mile if we give you inch.

I'm willing to settle for a small boat

	29-09-2003 06:59									#39
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I think the basic questions are these:

Would you do what you do now if no one paid you to do it?

What would you do even if no one paid you to do it?

	29-09-2003 07:04									#40
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I think the basic questions are these: Would you do what you do now if no one paid you to do it? What would you do even if no one paid you to do it?

What i do now is hard. It pays very well, but it is incredibly stressful. I do enjoy what I do, but I don't know anyone in my industry that would do it for no pay.

In answer to your second question...I really will settle for a small boat

	29-09-2003 07:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident As far left as I strive to be,

	29-09-2003 07:10									#42
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I think the proleteriat dictatorship can afford to give you a boat..will a 20 footer do? With or without sails?

	29-09-2003 07:12									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I think the proleteriat dictatorship can afford to give you a boat..will a 20 footer do? With or without sails?

No sails please.

*PLATO sells his political soul *

	29-09-2003 07:14									#44
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If all conversions were so simple....

	29-09-2003 07:16									#45
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COuldnt one argue that capitalistic society is immoral as heck too because some people will be "enslaved" to work?

This topic is boring. Lets talk about Baseball playoffs!

	29-09-2003 07:20									#46
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Communism = free beer.

	29-09-2003 07:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Zero This topic is boring. Lets talk about Baseball playoffs!

GO TWINS!

But it is fun to bonk capitalist heads.

	29-09-2003 07:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Communism = free beer.

	29-09-2003 07:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Odin GO TWINS!

The Tigers beat 'em!

	29-09-2003 07:51									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Jules The Tigers beat 'em!

So? we already clinched the division.

	29-09-2003 08:18									#51
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Why is Communism Immoral?

There are several fundamental problems with the very concept of such government. A Dictatorship of the Proletariot can never truely be democratic, I don't care if every member of the Proletariot is allowed a vote, even if they are allowed a vote free of Party influence they decree their will upon the minority.

Democracy is not only founded upon Majority Rule, but also upon Minority Rights. We must ensure basic civil liberties in order to maintain order. In a Society bred of violent revolt, born of the presupposition that might makes right, you have no civil liberties. You have Mob Rule. Ideal Communism will fade to such tyrrany of the masses which the American founders decided would be tragic. If I can take the land of the rich then what protects the land of my brother?

Even without the corrupt elitism of Party Politics (Inescapable since such a party of core agitators is required for revolution) Communism will treat those outside the 'elite group' (Proletariot) as nonpersons. If you can discriminate against one man then why not another? The Basis of communism is generalizations, making men faceless. Without faces, without distinction, men are not men. You cannot respect a generalization. A racist spits at other races because he sees not a man, but a flesh tone. A Communist jeers at the wealthy because he sees not a man, but wealth. Wealth which he desires and which he aims to take by use of force.

I spit on your covetousness, I spit on your jests. I spit on you each as individuals, not as a mass. I spit on your dogma, your blind faith in the righteousness of the strong.

	29-09-2003 08:25									#52
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Society is slavery. I wanted to be born into a society where I could walk up to a Senator and repeatedly slap him with a banana. But did I get in that society? No! I was forced into this one!

	29-09-2003 08:26									#53
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD There are several fundamental problems with the very concept of such government.

Fundamentally, communism is not a political system.

quote: Originally posted by SKILORD A Dictatorship of the Proletariot can never truely be democratic, I don't care if every member of the Proletariot is allowed a vote, even if they are allowed a vote free of Party influence they decree their will upon the minority.

Democracy is always the tyranny of the majority. What's the difference?

	29-09-2003 08:31									#54
	Remove this text

anyone want to play a game of . . .

Attachment: communism.jpg
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	29-09-2003 08:34									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun anyone want to play a game of . . .

I want to be the little boat piece.

	29-09-2003 08:34									#56
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Baloney! Most people's abilities? Who do you exclude from the "most people" in a communist society. What about the person who can produce more (or less)?

Exceptions are mostly of people who can produce less due to a variety of conditions such as diseases, mental disorders, and so forth.

quote: Originally posted by PLATO In addition, every persons work does produce value...and that value differs greatly.

Value is not the same as $$$. How do you assign $$$ to work such as protecting the environment?

quote: Originally posted by PLATO I have been managing people for over 15 years and the one thing I know for sure is that their production levels vary drastically. How does a communist society reconcile this?

They do? I think the Bell Curve must be tossed out the window, then.

Assign two eligible person randomly to identical tasks in identical environments, their productivity is extremely likely to be similar.

	29-09-2003 08:36									#57
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I think I know what Chegitz wants . . .

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	29-09-2003 08:37									#58
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I want to be the little boat piece.

No -- everyone gets the same game piece for this game, to prevent any status differentiation among players.

The game piece is a piece of dog sh*t.

	29-09-2003 08:38									#59
	prove to me that capitalism isn't immoral as heck Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Here's your chance. Explain why what I'm about to say is wrong. Communism is immoral, because it is slavery. I produce a commodity, my labor. I sell that commodity in exchange for money. If you require that I give that money to other people who have less money, then you are really requiring me to give my labor, without compensation, to them. Thus, I am their slave. Slavery is immoral.

Here's your chance. Explain why what I'm about to say is wrong.

Capitalism is immoral because it is slavery. Someone produces a commodity, and begins to manufature it. As they hire more and more workers, they begin to branch out. They begin putting down factories in other countries like China or India or Burma, where they force workers to work for a few cents each day. They cannot leave lest they starve, thus they are the corperations slaves. Slavery is immoral.

(And, just for effect: ) I spit on your covetousness, I spit on your jests. I spit on you each as individuals, not as a mass. I spit on your dogma, your blind faith in the righteousness of the strong.

I know, it's a really bad troll BUT.....So were they

	29-09-2003 08:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD Why is Communism Immoral? There are several fundamental problems with the very concept of such government. A Dictatorship of the Proletariot can never truely be democratic, I don't care if every member of the Proletariot is allowed a vote, even if they are allowed a vote free of Party influence they decree their will upon the minority. Democracy is not only founded upon Majority Rule, but also upon Minority Rights. We must ensure basic civil liberties in order to maintain order. In a Society bred of violent revolt, born of the presupposition that might makes right, you have no civil liberties. You have Mob Rule. Ideal Communism will fade to such tyrrany of the masses which the American founders decided would be tragic. If I can take the land of the rich then what protects the land of my brother? Even without the corrupt elitism of Party Politics (Inescapable since such a party of core agitators is required for revolution) Communism will treat those outside the 'elite group' (Proletariot) as nonpersons. If you can discriminate against one man then why not another? The Basis of communism is generalizations, making men faceless. Without faces, without distinction, men are not men. You cannot respect a generalization. A racist spits at other races because he sees not a man, but a flesh tone. A Communist jeers at the wealthy because he sees not a man, but wealth. Wealth which he desires and which he aims to take by use of force. I spit on your covetousness, I spit on your jests. I spit on you each as individuals, not as a mass. I spit on your dogma, your blind faith in the righteousness of the strong.

Skilord, I think that most of the communist here support the ideal and not the practical application. Just as the majority in capitalist-democratic countries can get out of control, so to can the minority in communist countries. The communist system, which mandates someone or group of someones to decide what the people's abilities and wants are, is far to subject to corruption to suceed. Capitalist-Democratic countries appear to have a better chance of keeping corruption from becoming crippiling.