03-10-2003 19:01									#31
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quote: I never said it wasn't, but what's the time span of that? When did that happen? Wich century at least?

on and off throughout the 2nd and the 1st millenia BC.

	03-10-2003 19:02									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Gehenom is a geographical location. "Gey-Hinom" 'Gey'=valley in hebrew

I remember when I went there, I was un-impressed heh. Looks like any random mini-valley near my home town.

	03-10-2003 19:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I reject the concept of Christianity because of my Jewish upbrining but also because I am an empiricist(which makes me reject Judaism to a degree as well).

well I happen to think Judaism evolved cause some Jews did reject aspects of the Judaism of their time.

	03-10-2003 19:09									#34
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I really dont think anyone will deny that fact, modern day Judaism from all groups bears little resemblance to Judaism 2,500 years ago.

	03-10-2003 19:41									#35
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark pre-exile, im quite sure. some time between 1000 BCE and 586 BCE.

Wich has nothing to do with what we're talking about; wich is by the time of Roman occupation.

	03-10-2003 20:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Zealot Wich has nothing to do with what we're talking about; wich is by the time of Roman occupation.

I thought what we were talking about was hell in JEWISH tradition. Ergo gehenom in Jewish tradition. Not necessarily what was going on in Gehennom during the Roman period. Not that there was anything wrong with mentioning that - just struck me that the Jews posting tended to associate gehennom with the pagan sacrifices, and the christians posting tended to associated it with the garbage pit. So i pointed out it might be different traditions. How have i deviated from what we were talking about.

(and supposing i had? deviating to a related topic is both standard for 'poly, and for the talmudic style of discourse - do you really have a problem with meandering discussions? And yet you feel qualified to discuss talmudic era jewish beliefs? D'oh, now THAT's chutzpah)

	03-10-2003 20:05									#37
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interesting too, how someone on another thread asked me why i bring up conservative judaism in religious debates among christians and atheists, yet no one bats an eyelash when a question about Judaism turns into a discussion of the tenets of christianity.

How many of you guys have actually ever read the Talmud?

	03-10-2003 20:15									#38
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark (and supposing i had? deviating to a related topic is both standard for 'poly, and for the talmudic style of discourse - do you really have a problem with meandering discussions? And yet you feel qualified to discuss talmudic era jewish beliefs? D'oh, now THAT's chutzpah)

LoM you misinterpreted me, and took my conversation into another field. Don't get all that sassy!
Besides, I don't mind you going through what I wrote and pointing out what I got mistaken in the Jewish beliefs! It's another way for me to learn!

	04-10-2003 00:51									#39
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Oh, to hell with this conversation...

	04-10-2003 01:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: I never said it wasn't, but what's the time span of that? When did that happen? Wich century at least? on and off throughout the 2nd and the 1st millenia BC.

That sure pinpoints it, doesn't it?

	04-10-2003 02:08									#41
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[qutoe]Eh? How can you be a Catholic if you are against Papal Infalibility (against Church teachings)? That doesn't make sense to me."[/quote]

Well there are certain teachings which you can't disagree with without putting yourself outside of the Church, but there are other issues in which you can remain a Catholic in good standing will dissenting against certain teachings of the Church.

quote: "Why should this article taken to be authoritative over the bible?"

I am guessing most of the expereince you have is with fundamentalist Christians? The majority of Christians do not take the Bible as inerrant or literal, much of it can be seen as metaphorical. Keep in mind here, the Bible describes Hell as both a place of "Fire" and "Outer Darkness". But how can fire and darkness coexist at the same time? Fire does tend to illuminate after all. Most theologians now interpert Hell as a spiritual Hell.

quote: Either be good and go to heaven, or be bad and go to hell. Now you "choose" to go to hell, but what if I dont want to be good AND I dont want to go to hell? Since god made the system he is still forcing me to a place against my will by virtue of a lack of alternatives.

As, I said, Hell is a place of self-exclusion. I don't mean it in the sense that a person who steals chooses to go to prison, but that the damned truly prefer Hell to Heaven. Now, you talk about a lack of alternatives. It's really isn't a matter of different places for you to god, with either a bunch of angles playing harps in the clouds or a cave with fire where you can got poked by pitchforks. In the Universe there is God, who offers for us to be united with him in the communion with saints in perfect love(Heaven), or you can refuse that offer, isolating yourself from God and all that is good.

It's somewhat complex theology, but it's an important point to make so we don't think of God as some psycho who personally adminsters firey tortures to people who did something wrong.

quote: interesting too, how someone on another thread asked me why i bring up conservative judaism in religious debates among christians and atheists, yet no one bats an eyelash when a question about Judaism turns into a discussion of the tenets of christianity.

Well, he did mention in discussing the idea of Hell that if it is there then God is the biggest bastard in existance. It's relevant to the topic in philosopically defending the idea of Hell so Vesayen can better deal with this aspect of his religion if Hell is indeed a part of it.

	04-10-2003 02:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Well, he did mention in discussing the idea of Hell that if it is there then God is the biggest bastard in existance. It's relevant to the topic in philosopically defending the idea of Hell so Vesayen can better deal with this aspect of his religion if Hell is indeed a part of it.

well yeah, i understand that, but then isnt a jewish perspective equally valid when people in the midst of christian-secularist debates make points that have implications for Judaism?

	04-10-2003 02:18									#43
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I've never had a problem with any of your posts in religion-related threads.

	04-10-2003 02:20									#44
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quote: Well there are certain teachings which you can't disagree with without putting yourself outside of the Church, but there are other issues in which you can remain a Catholic in good standing will dissenting against certain teachings of the Church.

Well you did say 'many' of the Church teachings. I assumed that meant some of the big ones, like Papal Bulls and the such.

	04-10-2003 02:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi I've never had a problem with any of your posts in religion-related threads.

thanks, i think interfaith discussions are just peachy (no really) It would be nice to get a muslim perspective once in awhile, as well.

	04-10-2003 02:37									#46
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LoTM:

I don't think Shi and I are trying to threadjack.

Just ask us to leave if you feel differently.

quote: Now you "choose" to go to hell, but what if I dont want to be good AND I dont want to go to hell? Since god made the system he is still forcing me to a place against my will by virtue of a lack of alternatives.

Vesayen:

Did you come into existence all by yourself? God made the system, he also gets to make the rules.

Shi:

quote: but there are other issues in which you can remain a Catholic in good standing will dissenting against certain teachings of the Church.

One can reject papal infalliability and still be a Catholic in good standing? Are you sure about this?

	04-10-2003 02:46									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi LoTM: I don't think Shi and I are trying to threadjack. Just ask us to leave if you feel differently.

i dont know. i very much appreciate your goodwill (dare I say its "christian" of you? ) , though i also was hoping for an actual discussion of jewish sources. Since vesayen started the thread, i will leave it up to him which topics he chooses to pursue. I guess given the paucity of people here with interest/knowledge to pursue the Jewish angle, its kind of inevitable that the thread would turn. And i certainly appreciate that the original post hit some "hot" buttons.

	04-10-2003 03:04									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Vesayen: Did you come into existence all by yourself? God made the system, he also gets to make the rules.

Then if hell exists, his rules suck.


Also the idea that "hell is self impossed torment" is rediculous..... you can not have "ultimate love and goodness" but at the same time not be filled with complete self loathing and hate, there is a happy medium isnt there :?

	04-10-2003 03:44									#49
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark you'll have to ask your prof for his text references. I presume he means gehenom. As others have mentioned it is an actual place outside Jerusalem. Like Az, ive always heard it mentioned as a bad place because of pagan sacrifices, not cause it was a garbage pit. Maybe a different jewish trad from Christian trad on that one? OTOH, gehennom is used in contrast to gan eden (garden of eden, paradise) so in that sense its equivalent to hell. Theres also the wilderness of Azazel, where the scapegoat that carries the sins of the people was sent on Yom Kippur.

Come to think of it, I also remember that allegedly at one time the valley was used for the sacrifice of children by pagans. Wasn't there supposed to be a Jewish king who reverted to paganism?