07-10-2003 13:03									#31
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Perhaps I should've made myself more clear. I don't think that they refer to it as some sort of deity, but it seems that people think of it as something quasi-sentient.

but enough with the threadjack.

	07-10-2003 17:12									#32
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Post-birth... After-birth... Are these not the same term?

Well, sometimes "after-birth" refers to the placenta, so in that usage, no. OTOH it is rather difficult to conceive of a placenta as having sexuality.

	07-10-2003 17:14									#33
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LOL...

	07-10-2003 17:20									#34
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I think that those species in which some males exhibit homosexual behavior are those in which mating occurs in a harem dominated by an alpha male. In those species, after mating season battles with other males, a single powerful male attracts the females within his domain and attempts to monopolize them. The males who loose the battle are excluded for mating, but still have the urge to mate. Since they're excluded from mating with females they may take it out on each other.

It's also true that in many mammalian species cubs play at mating each other.

	07-10-2003 17:41									#35
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Shi Huangdi, my earlier post was a joke (a play on Tass' earlier post)...I guess some people just take life too seriously...

	07-10-2003 19:19									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Perhaps I should've made myself more clear. I don't think that they refer to it as some sort of deity, but it seems that people think of it as something quasi-sentient. but enough with the threadjack.

Jesus ****ing Christ! I was being colloquial. Now please unplug the pedant chip from your brain and give me a reasonable answer.

There is no a priori argument against homosexuality being an adaptation.

	07-10-2003 19:50									#37
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I don't have to prove a negative.

	07-10-2003 20:18									#38
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quote: I think that those species in which some males exhibit homosexual behavior are those in which mating occurs in a harem dominated by an alpha male.

No alpha males with harems in the penguin population.

	07-10-2003 20:25									#39
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My problem with this study is that this test was performed with fully developed adults. In order for this study to prove that it is "not a choice" this would need to be done at birth and then track the child through adulthood to decide whether this eye reflex cannot be learned, since I see it as a reflex not an instinct...

Interesting none-the-less. Now that we can identify them I guess the "don't ask, don't tell" policy went right out the door.

	08-10-2003 03:40									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus No alpha males with harems in the penguin population.

Well..... but penguins aren't gay, they just look that way because they have really, really good fashion sense!!

	08-10-2003 03:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Japher My problem with this study is that this test was performed with fully developed adults. In order for this study to prove that it is "not a choice" this would need to be done at birth and then track the child through adulthood to decide whether this eye reflex cannot be learned, since I see it as a reflex not an instinct...

Precisely. They would also have to prove that the response of an individual was consistent and reproducible.

	08-10-2003 03:53									#42
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quote: Well..... but penguins aren't gay

read the link

	08-10-2003 05:34									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There is no a priori argument against homosexuality being an adaptation.

There is, in that homosexuality obviously reduces the chances of an individual passing on genes. In should be impossible for evolution to select directly for homosexual traits, certainly to the exclusion of heterosexual traits.

It could be an offshoot of some other factor which is advantagous in some other way (male bonding, say).



Anyway, the study is awful. I've heard better studies on identical twins, which indicated that if one twin is gay then the other has a 50% chance of being gay; so at least some gay people are not 'born gay', though some may be.

Or to quote the first page of every genetics textbook ever written, genotype plus environment equals phenotype. For some reason people ignore this every time they study human traits, and we end up discovering it all over again...

	08-10-2003 06:58									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus read the link

In the wild most penguin species have a relatively confined mating ground. Males compete for spaces within the mating area. Those that win will be able to mate with females in heat, those that don't.....well, that's just tough. In those species the losers are generally condemned to hang out together. In other species of penguins there is limited space for nesting, and it is the females who compete for a space to nest and then the males compete for the acceptance of a female. In these species there may be both male and female "outcasts". Perhaps under these conditions males who are unable to bond with a female then make a bond with another male. I wonder what happens to the females under these conditions. I'd also like to know how the sexual/ mating/ parenting behavior of this species in captivity compares with the wild state.

	08-10-2003 08:30									#45
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The findings may also help illuminate sex differences in mental health issues. "Although homosexuality per se is not related to psychiatric problems, on those occasions that gays and lesbians do present with psychiatric problems, they often show disorders that are typical of the opposite sex," Rahman says. Gay men, for example, may be more likely to suffer depression, anxiety and eating disorders than their straight counterparts, while lesbians may be more vulnerable to substance abuse than heterosexual women. "Maybe having an understanding of brain basis of sexual orientation in healthy individuals may give us some clues in what is going wrong in the brain circuitry underlying certain psychiatric problems," Rahman says. "In the future, we may be able to tailor treatments more specifically." It's important not to draw too many generalizations. "It's not that the gay brain is like the heterosexual brain of the opposite sex. It seems to be a mosaic of male and female typical traits," Rahman says. "Because we're looking at humans, thing are always more complicated that you would expect."

I do agree with them that a gay/lesbian's brain is not wired like that of the opposite gender, since sexual orientation and gender are two separate aspects of human identity.

	08-10-2003 08:50									#46
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Golly! Why would anyone expect something involving the human brain to be less complicated?

	08-10-2003 10:28									#47
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Eventually we will be able to modify the genetic structure of the unborn. So will parents be able to choose their child's sexual preference before birth?

	08-10-2003 21:38									#48
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Does anybody remember the British study circa 1997-8 that said that homosexuals had different general thumbprint patterns than heterosexuals?

I remember that because I was in the finishing year at my all-girls school when that piece of news hit the streets, and all the other girls went around looking at each others' thumbs. At that time, it had been a bad winter and my fingers had all cracked and peeled, so they couldn't tell anything from my thumbprints

	08-10-2003 22:57									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Golly! Why would anyone expect something involving the human brain to be less complicated?

Yeah, who would have thought THAT, Beavis?

	08-10-2003 23:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Curiosity There is, in that homosexuality obviously reduces the chances of an individual passing on genes. In should be impossible for evolution to select directly for homosexual traits, certainly to the exclusion of heterosexual traits. It could be an offshoot of some other factor which is advantagous in some other way (male bonding, say). Anyway, the study is awful. I've heard better studies on identical twins, which indicated that if one twin is gay then the other has a 50% chance of being gay; so at least some gay people are not 'born gay', though some may be. Or to quote the first page of every genetics textbook ever written, genotype plus environment equals phenotype. For some reason people ignore this every time they study human traits, and we end up discovering it all over again...

Um... none of these are a priori arguments.

	09-10-2003 01:35									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Um... none of these are a priori arguments.

Strictly speaking no a priori arguments apply to scientific analysis. I assumed you were not using the term literally, given that it would be meaningless.

My initial two paragraphs (the rest wasn't aimed at you in particular) assume only basic evolutionary theory. I've spent enough hours of my life writing kiloword rebutals of attacks on evolution, so if you want to disagree with that assumption then ít's your loss, not mine.

	09-10-2003 01:44									#52
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I'm sorry I don't buy any arguement that people are biologically influenced to make certain life decisions.

It is the sign of a weak pathetic person when they can't admit that they made a choice about lifestyle. Be proud of who you are I say.

Now if I was born missing a chromosome and became mentally retarded would that be because of personal choice? No, that is an example of biologically determined fate.

	09-10-2003 01:48									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Curiosity Strictly speaking no a priori arguments apply to scientific analysis. I assumed you were not using the term literally, given that it would be meaningless.

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make.

Look at the context. Azazel was basically just ruling the possibility of the adaptational theory out of court. This was my sarcastic way of replying.

	09-10-2003 06:11									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Cookie Monster I'm sorry I don't buy any arguement that people are biologically influenced to make certain life decisions. It is the sign of a weak pathetic person when they can't admit that they made a choice about lifestyle. Be proud of who you are I say. Now if I was born missing a chromosome and became mentally retarded would that be because of personal choice? No, that is an example of biologically determined fate.

You're really distorting what sexual orientation is -- which is part of an identity of a person, which in of itself, is not a choice.

On the other hand, how a homosexual decides to live his/her life is definitely based on individual choice: marrying into a heterosexual marriage out of fear, coming out to friends and family, and countless of other possible choices.

	09-10-2003 07:28									#55
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It can't be a choice - who would choose that??

	09-10-2003 08:00									#56
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Yeah, who would have thought THAT, Beavis?

Well, I'm not a penguin anyway, are you?

	09-10-2003 08:08									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia It can't be a choice - who would choose that??

'That' being what, exactly?

	09-10-2003 18:17									#58
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom 'That' being what, exactly?

Homosexuality.

	09-10-2003 18:35									#59
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quote: Look at the context. Azazel was basically just ruling the possibility of the adaptational theory out of court. This was my sarcastic way of replying.

Ruling out? you can't rule out anything in science. What I am saying that with current evidence, this seems not to be the case, and I'll need some very strong evidence to prove it.

	09-10-2003 22:31									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Well, I'm not a penguin anyway, are you?

eh?