15-10-2003 02:10									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber 2. allow preaccepted deals to avoid missed trade opportunities and speed diplomatic interchange 3. Still permit backstabs and failure to pay later

So, to be crystal clear.....

If the Cycon had accepted the trade and in the diplobox said "we accept the conditions"

then next line in the diplobox said

"we have been so p'd off at this pact that we are downgrading it to treaty"

and then in the 3rd line said

"Oh, and btw we are not going to abide by the conditions we agreed to 2 lines earlier"

everything would have been OK?

G.

	15-10-2003 02:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Personally I don't see the need to change the rules of this game. This situation could have been avoided by a simple precaution of PEACE: contacting the faction you want to give a tech to well in time instead of on the last minute and while you still have the turn, and not a day after you sent the turn. That way all miscommunications and stress could be easily avoided, and deals wouldn't have to be rushed, with all the resulting mess and inclarity afterwards. Besides, I'm sure Googlie would have allowed to keep the turn longer a bit longer than 48 hours if very crucial negotiations were going on.

Err... hehe

Beat me to it.

	15-10-2003 02:19									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber BULL I personally PM ed the guy you told me was your ambassador a full two days before you guys got the turn.

But a day after you sent the turn. You sent your turn on 23 hours and 59 minutes after Drogue posted it in the turn tracking thread. This means you could still wait 24 hours, in that time asking us whether we agreed on a certain deal. Yet you did not use that time. Why not? In the past you did keep the turn in your camp because of important negotiations.
Again, you could have avoided this situation very easily by changing your diplomatic tactics.

	15-10-2003 02:52									#34
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Are we roleplaying here? If yes, then I'm sure the real functions and the real captains would not talk about something as fictitious as a "turn". If not, then I would suggest we try to keep us from accusation wars.

	15-10-2003 03:05									#35
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I agree with HongHu. It cannot be in character, as we are not allowed to do that. OOC we don't need a mudslinging war. PEACE have put their side of the story here, where we cannot reply and give our side. I think that says it all.

	15-10-2003 03:08									#36
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quote: If not, then I would suggest we try to keep us from accusation wars.

Gladly.

	15-10-2003 03:13									#37
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You can't reply IC, with knowledge that you'd only know IC, but you can reply OOC....

It's all been said by now from the looks of it, by various people, but frankly, I see the Cyborg actions as perfectly legitimate. Yes, they betrayed PEACE. That's PEACE's problem, not the CMN's. That is the risk you take when you pre-accept a trade of any sort, and if PEACE are looking for anyone to blame, they should blame themselves for both failing to complete negociations when they had plenty of time left, and failing to make a good choice of Pact Partner.

As for Googlie's actions, in my opinion, he correctly made his post as he would have if he had no prior knowledge of the Cyborg plans. If he had refrained from posting, that would have made it appear suspicious. By posting normally, and simply saying what he would have if he had no knowledge of the Cyborg intentions, he has as far as I'm concerned broken no rule, written or unwritten.

Frankly, whoever it was who made those comments which have made Googlie do this should be utterly ashamed of themselves. You are certainly a very poor loser if you can't take a little backstabbing. Not everything can go your way, exactly as you planned it. If you can't accept that, you shouldn't even be in this game, let alone in a PBEM of any sort.

	15-10-2003 03:16									#38
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quote: Frankly, whoever it was who made those comments which have made Googlie do this should be utterly ashamed of themselves. You are certainly a very poor loser if you can't take a little backstabbing. Not everything can go your way, exactly as you planned it. If you can't accept that, you shouldn't even be in this game, let alone in a PBEM of any sort.

i fully agree

	15-10-2003 03:21									#39
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Very well put, Archaic. (Sorry, bad pun.)

	15-10-2003 03:34									#40
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... Ugh

Last edited by Corellion on 15-10-2003 at 03:47

	15-10-2003 03:40									#41
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I have just got back to read all this update. I have to say I have to support Flubber on his comments and explanations.

quote: You sent your turn on 23 hours and 59 minutes after Drogue posted it in the turn tracking thread. This means you could still wait 24 hours, in that time asking us whether we agreed on a certain deal. Yet you did not use that time. Why not? In the past you did keep the turn in your camp because of important negotiations.

Our approach allowed for sufficient negotiating time and space (4/5 days) plus our notice in the Dip Box. It was not a particularly complex offer. Nor did it need to be hammered out inside 48 hours.

	15-10-2003 03:48									#42
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You well know that we have explained to Flubber on numerous occasions why we did not have 4/5 days. Yet you continue to persist in writing it in a place where we cannot explain why.

	15-10-2003 04:02									#43
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quote: Googlie resigned because of personal insults towards him from a certain PEACE member. Drogue has in the past thought of quitting the ACDG because of personal insults from a certain PEACE member. And though I haven't thought of fully leaving the ACDG, I deliberately chose to switch my focus from the ACDG to the ACPSG because I was fed up with the implicit insults and hypocrisy of certain PEACE members. Is it just me, or do certain people in PEACE have an attitude problem?

I would ask Maniac to withdraw and or delete these comments. They have no place in this discussion and I feel are insulting to me and my colleagues. As you have read many of us in the Peace faction disagreed with the decision but many accept it as a ruling.. That does not invalidate the ruling being challenging robustly, nor it being defended robustly.

I would not advocate changing the rules mid game but I would advocate a good thorough discussion (in the abstract) in the general help forum, where it can be thrashed out.

Also as you know I want Googlie to continue as CMN

	15-10-2003 04:12									#44
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Herc: He was talking about Googlie's resignation, not about this ruling. Your faction accepts it, however IIRC, one member of your faction attacked Googlie personally, and insulted/accused me. That post was not intended to state that this was PEACEs official line. He simply illudes to "certain PEACE members".

While I wouldn't be abject to deleting the last line, the rest is all true. I did think of leaving because of personal attacks from PEACE, and it seems Googlie has too.

I think it is relevant to the debate. However if Googlie rules it to cross the coundaries of non-communication, since we have not met all the factions, then it will be removed. Maniac is welcome to remove it, however I am not going to officially ask him to remove what he says, because the insults made against me were never refuted by PEACE.

Maniac knows that most members of PEACE accept the ruling. That post is about those members of PEACE that have not, and that did the things that Maniac stated.

	15-10-2003 04:21									#45
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I can see that despite playing many many PBEMs I had a fundamental misunderstanding of what is acceptable regarding the comm box.

I thought I could say I 'll give you x ( preaccepting x) if you send back y . . . and taking x would be wrong and a cheat if the tech was not returned . . . . I saw the diplbox as something different from a base that may be raided or a unit that may be stolen . .. I now see that you can't preaccept as a means to speed play as you do so at your peril . ..

I can see by the weight of opinion that I was wrong . . . I do find it amazing how many games I have played and no one has ever tried this on me -- the issue has never arisen before in any of my games . . .

I did not want this stuff to come out in this fashion. I was suprised and disappointed to see googlie resign and started this thread when there was a call for someone from the faction involved to explain what happened. I don't believe our faction looks good in all this (our faction was duped and then a member acted in a manner I didn't agree with) but in this thread I have neither whined, nor roleplayed.

I legitimately believed in something and wanted to make sure I understand the rules ( I don't agree the ruling is the best way to go but thats neither here nor there and the fact that I didn't understand something that appears clearly understood by others is my problem) . Now that I understand the rules my attitude is one of " nice backstab, you had me completely fooled"

As for one side of the story-- any faction will get the cycon version whenever they meet the cycon . As it stands the cycon are coming out of this pretty good anyway as everyone is focused on googlie's resignation

If everyone isn't sick of all this all by now, I will probably still do a roleplay thread since events are interesting . .. The stuff I have posted here has intentionally been a pretty bland recitation of what happened. I could probably do a more colorful version in a pirate tone as a tall tale o' the sea or somesuch. That story could contain the Pirates view of what happened ( in case anyone cares) . .. Although not a great writer, I would hope to make it at least a moderately entertaining read. I would hope as others obtain all the commlinks that they would similarly post roleplaying type stuff.


My view is that googlie staying is not even an issue. He was is and should be the CNM IMHO. My preference would have been for all this to come out in some roleplaying at some later time . But for the googlie resignation issue, I would not have mentioned this issue until my tall tales was ready. In retrospect, I probably could have given fewer details but if that is my error I will live with it.

	15-10-2003 04:27									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue because the insults made against me were never refuted by PEACE.

PEACE could not refute this since none of us would have knowledge of the insult, EDIT other than the person that made it END EDIT . Likewise you could not refute it if I said cycon player x insulted me since you have no control over or even knowledge of their personal messages or emails . I was suprised when you told me of this in a PM since it was the first time I had heard of the issue. I don't think any mention of any of this appears in our private forum.

	15-10-2003 04:39									#47
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That is true, you did not know. Which is why I do not hold it against PEACE. On second thought, maybe the removal of that statement would be better, especially the last line.

The main thing I have against this thread is that PEACE are starting a thread explaining their side while they know we cannot reply. That is of course their perogative, since they have met all the factions. However if we can talk OOC, as Maniac's post was, then I do not see how his post is insulting while this thread is not. If it is against the rules, then remove it. If it is not, I do not see the problem. However with it causing offense, i will ask Maniac to remove it when he is next online.

	15-10-2003 04:44									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue You well know that we have explained to Flubber on numerous occasions why we did not have 4/5 days. Yet you continue to persist in writing it in a place where we cannot explain why.

I don't see how talking about the timeframe of playing turns and receiving emails impacts on anything within the game . When you talk about failing to negotiate in a timely fashion, I take that as a comment as to game mechanics, outside the roleplay and actual gameplay . We are talking turns and emails here.

as for your explanation, basically your ambassador told me to send all messages to a certain individual who was the new ambassador, which I did about 2 days before the turn got to you. What you did with the game turn is a matter of gameplay and I'll leave that issue alone. Then you advised that your new ambassador was often unavailable and that was the reason you did not know our offers. (dang its tough to skirt gameplay matters and talk about procedural ones)

.The fact that the turn might have left us before the gameturn did or vice versa is entirely to do with the fact that I have a job, wife and child. But I have always tried to give a speedy reply to anyone that contacts me.

	15-10-2003 04:54									#49
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I can't reply to that, as that would go into details that, since we haven't met some others, I can't go into.

	15-10-2003 04:54									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue The main thing I have against this thread is that PEACE are starting a thread explaining their side while they know we cannot reply. That is of course their perogative, since they have met all the factions. However if we can talk OOC, as Maniac's post was, then I do not see how his post is insulting while this thread is not. If it is against the rules, then remove it.

I started this thread . . I have insulted no one and given a pretty bland recitation of the facts as they are known to me. Since we can talk to anyone, I have broken no rules-- I could go hog wild roleplaying but I didn't think that appropriate when googlie has yet to confirm he is staying . . . that can wait until we get away from the crap that led to this thread and get back to the fun of the game.

I wanted to do two things with this thread-- get the rules clarified ( for me if for no one else) and explain what led to googlies ( soon to be reversed I hope resignation)

Both objectives have been met but on a personal level I get peeved when someone accuses me of slow negotiating-- Thats an outside the game criticism and I responded.

	15-10-2003 04:56									#51
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At some point I will run a poll on whether there should be a rule governing pre-accepted trades for leap-frogging purposes.

I may be thick, but I still don't see the difference (in using pre-accepted tech deals to facilitate leapfrogs) - other than "current turn/next turn" - between:


1) what the CyCon did:

take the proferred tech, close the diplo box and renounce pact

and,

2) my earlier questioning post:

accept the trade and in the diplobox say "we accept the conditions"

then next line in the diplobox say

"we have been so p'd off at this pact that we are downgrading it to treaty"

and then in the 3rd line say

"Oh, and btw we are not going to abide by the conditions we agreed to 2 lines earlier"

and

3) waiting a turn:

Accept the tech and the conditions this turn, stay pacted and then next turn abrogate the pact and say "Oh, and btw we are not going to abide by the conditions we agreed to last turn"

IMO if the third is OK, then so are the first and second.

Bu as there seems to be some agreement that a poll would solve things, I'll run a poll in a couple of days.

G.

	15-10-2003 04:59									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Both objectives have been met but on a personal level I get peeved when someone accuses me of slow negotiating-- Thats an outside the game criticism and I responded.

IIRC no-one has done that I don't think you negotiate slowly, and haven't seen anyone else post that. I'm sorry if it seems like I have.

	15-10-2003 05:22									#53
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A poll is not necessary now IMHO . .. your ruling has been confirmed by archaic and buster as standard practice in many games. It was something I did not know and I don't advocate changing rules mid game . . .

In your example the only difference I see is this

1. If I want to trade x for y, we make the deal and both accept it, no backstab possibilities since the game mechanics allow both parties to see the deal and accept it at the same time.

2. If a player is about to imminently discover x and we want to trade them x, there is now NO WAY to securely complete this trade if they are to return new tech y that they will acquire IMMEDIATELY upon the tech flip. If the deal is honored the techs pass just like situation 1. If its not, the only recourse is to be pissed off.

3. In my games it is often done that players will offer a tech preaccepted as a means to speed up play. I will certainly discontinue this practice.

I don't disagree that it is within the rules to backstab. I don't disagree that if I agree to gift a tech, the other can take it and then attack on the next turn. a party can fail to give promised future considerations ( although the CIV3 SP version has ways to include these as well) To me breaking a pact was irrelevant as well.

Its all about how techs in the diplbox offers are treated . .. I always considered the diplobox to be a clunky mechanism and that the rules should be such to encourage offers in the box in a fashion that would encourage speedier play and the quicker conclusion of trades.

I see I was misguided and mistaken. Leave the rules as they are . . . its not such a big thing to get used to .. .

Googlie for my benefit, other than diplomatic consequences, is there any way to secure a trade ( say for a tech they will discover after a leapfrog trade) to ensure it will happen.?

I would like to be able to play such that I can put in the diplbox " I offer tech x if you send 50 ec by return mail"-- the intent is to make a trade immediately but there is no way for me to put the other sides 50ec in as the deal I want to accept . . So the deal has to wait another turn since thats the way the diplo box works, or you risk having the opponent abscond with the tech if you are so foolish to offer it preaccepted

	15-10-2003 06:06									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Googlie for my benefit, other than diplomatic consequences, is there any way to secure a trade ( say for a tech they will discover after a leapfrog trade) to ensure it will happen.? I would like to be able to play such that I can put in the diplbox " I offer tech x if you send 50 ec by return mail"-- the intent is to make a trade immediately but there is no way for me to put the other sides 50ec in as the deal I want to accept . . So the deal has to wait another turn since thats the way the diplo box works, or you risk having the opponent abscond with the tech if you are so foolish to offer it preaccepted

Flubber:

When smac first came out one could put negative energy credits in the diplobox - and the receiving faction would lose that amount when they accepted the trade. But that was corrected in one of the early patches, which was a pity, 'cos it could have served well in PBEMs (eg offer the tech plus negative energy credits that you repay when the promised exchange tech gets delivered)

Of course if the receiving faction were running on margin, then that might just mean that they get a tech for 17 credits or whatever (the patch came 'cos one could put, say, -200 credits in and if there weren't enough in the kitty the player would automatically lose faciltiies to get their sale price)

Those very early PMEMs were fraught with danger - one had to read the diplobox carefully.

But, no, I don't know of any secure way of ensuring that a pre-accepted tech agreement gets honoured, other than through absolute trust in the pactmate.

Googlie

	15-10-2003 06:35									#55
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Hrmm actually that gives away too much in game information.

Last edited by Kody on 15-10-2003 at 06:45

	15-10-2003 06:38									#56
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Googlie,

I think it's a pity you need to worry about censoring yourself. I know that you derive much of your fun from talking to people and offering your advice on game rules.

As for censoring all the 200 odd posts to the hive. Well you really only need to censor maybe 20 game related ones.

	15-10-2003 07:19									#57
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K:

I will be looking thru my Hive posts, but I don't think any were contained information that was derived from other than the Hive's own turns - and any Hive member could have done that

G.

	15-10-2003 07:19									#58
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Mostly what I've done is what any seasoned PBEM vet would know - how to interpret pactmate infiltration data on third parties, for example. And I haven't limited that to any one faction.

I don't think I've inadvertently (or even advertently) revealed faction info to another faction that couldn't be derived from that faction's in-game information (well, maybe earlier on today when I accidently posted what the actual tech was that was in dispute - but as only CyCon and PEACE team members were reading those posts at that time I'm pretty sure that for the 2 minutes it was displayed no one else saw it)

But I did delete all my upload files first thing this morning, so there will be some residual posts of mine with a link to a now non-existent [img]

Other than that, it's been a hectic day

G.

	15-10-2003 08:19									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Other than that, it's been a hectic day G.

To say the least.

	15-10-2003 09:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie But, no, I don't know of any secure way of ensuring that a pre-accepted tech agreement gets honoured, other than through absolute trust in the pactmate. Googlie

and thats the situation that I think would benfit from protection . . . its only the clunkiness of game mechanics that mean that this trade can not be secured like a normal tech for tech trade.

I dislike the rule and ruling because

1. it requires no cleverness to backstab
2. there is no way to protect yourself in a legitimate tech leapfrog
3. Disallowing this ( ie requiring players to come across with whatever that is to be traded in THAT turn year) most approximates real roleplaying and life-- I'll give you x if you give me y and the trade is simultaneous-- If I agree to buy a car for 10000 with 5000 down I don't get the car unless I give the 5000 and they would call the cops if I drove away without paying the initial 5000-- failure to pay later installments would more likely viewed as a civil matter LOL

In my conceptualization of the way it "should be" any future consideration beyond the immediate year or anything that doesn't fit in the tech box (tech or credits only) would have no protection since the whole purpose is to not allow players to exploit the fact that the consideration requested back CANNOT be placed in the box. So if I see you are researching ethical calc and will discover it this year I can send the tech to you preaccepted with my request for 50 ec. . . . You could trade or not ( or even email me to negotiate) but taking the tech would NOT be kosher-- By having the rules otherwise means that someone can't even make the offer without opening themselves up to theft

I'll quit in this topic now