19-10-2003 09:19									#31
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Horribly disgusting. Makes you wonder if in some circumstance these crimes should warrant pain of death.

	19-10-2003 09:52									#32
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I saw a document some time ago about this rape situation in south africa, but it didn't consentrate that much on child rape. To find out that 60 kids a day get raped is surprising eventhought I knew that S.Africa is the rape nation of the world. They said in the document that while some rapes maybe racial, the problem isn't that much racial, everyone gets raped.

	19-10-2003 12:53									#33
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quote: However surely the level of alcohol intake and the level of sexual abuse of children is co-related. Indeed in Greenland where there is also a high level of alcohol abuse there is also a corresponding level of child abuse.

That MIGHT be somewhat convincing if the child abuse in Greenland was actually child rape. If this link between alcohol and child rape were a reality, wouldn't we see high rates of child rape in Russia or any other place with lot's of booze? No, drinking booze doesn't induce child rape.

	19-10-2003 12:56									#34
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By racial, I mean inter-tribal.

	19-10-2003 13:09									#35
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Terrible, terrible story. I cringed while reading it and envisioned a stranger do that to my younger loved ones — and as civilized as I profess myself to be, I would be sorely tempted to hunt down the perps and execute them with the business end of a gun.

Gatekeeper

	19-10-2003 13:24									#36
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Declare open season.

Anybody who finds one of these things happening and has a pistol handy, can blow the brains out of anyone wih their **** out, no legal penalties.

If that dosen't work, add bounties. One hundred dollars a ****.

	19-10-2003 14:34									#37
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"Sometimes you have to believe in absolute evil."

I have no further comment.

Some things defy rational explanation. This is one of them. Science cannot explain why something like this happens because it does not follow the rules.

I had heard the AIDS explanation, but I had no idea that only one of the cases supported that presupposition.

	19-10-2003 14:44									#38
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I know it is tempting for you people to open the hunt season, and I actually would really enjoy seeing such monsters being lynched. But I hope you guys know such an easy 'solution' isn't enough by far, and can even be contraproductive.

If there is any validity in current hypotheses, it is a specific category of the population that indulges in this monstrous gratuitous violence (don't forget infant rape is only a part of a bigger picture: gratuitous violence galore). A category of the population who is hateful against society. A category of the population who has no future and no fear of death (45% of the rapists have AIDS !).
Shooting them won't deter new people like that to appear. On the contrary, it will make this category of population feel even more oppressed by society, and there may be even more people wanting to get revenge on society by perpetrating the most monstrous act a human being can do. :Puke:

Besides, if you systematise the use of individual violence against infant rapists, you'll make sure that mob rule will kill throngs of innocents who happened to be too much at the wrong place at the wrong time. There is a reason vigilante "justice" is avoided in any developed society: it is hardly a justice at all, but rather a mob rule often manipulated by local charismatic people.

The solution ? I can't say, but I'd suppose the massive distribution of generic anti-AIDS medication would be a good start. A temporary prohibition of hard alcohol could help, because the consumption is really over the line, and prohibition could have some chance of succeeding in lowering it. Keep the guys in the villages rather than in townships with a successful agriculture. Etc.

Yes, it'll continue to be 60 infant rapes a day. Yes, it'll continue to be a humongous amount of 'normal' rape too But I think your bright ideas will only bring about more suffering among the innocents, even more anarchy, and even more infant rapes in the end.

	19-10-2003 15:43									#39
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Let's just nuke the whole damn continent and make it a big shopping center for us with lots of air conditioners. Problem solved.

	19-10-2003 15:46									#40
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They produce the uranium we need to build nukes.

	19-10-2003 15:50									#41
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We already have enough nukes, we don't need more anyway. Another problem solved right there.

Naturally I'm only kidding. Infant rape is something beyond imagination.

	19-10-2003 15:56									#42
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This child has no-one to go out and avenge her. The mother hardly cared. Vigilantism will only cause more problems.

	19-10-2003 17:02									#43
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This is so horrible that I can only think of stoning those bastards to death or something like that.

	19-10-2003 19:32									#44
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Oh, I quite agree that vigilante justice isn't the best solution, or even a particularly good one. Nor is it in any way a *complete* solution, however:

* When the local law enforcement agencies have shown an ongoing inability/lack of motivation to solve the problem

* When the crimes are perpetrated against those who cannot defend themselves

* When those crimes are so hateful and violent and violating in nature they they make grown men here flinch to read about them

Yes...at that point by God, SOMETHING needs to be done. If it was your daughter that was next, what? Are you honestly telling me you'd just sit back and wring your hands saying "Oh, there's nothing to be done....we must study this issue to find the root cause?"

Or is it more likely by far, that you would pick up a gun or a knife or a rock and go hunting for the bastard that did it?

60 a day is 60 too many. They keep getting away with it cos nobody is taking them to task for it, and for that reason, they feel emboldened to do it again. Why not? Nobody's after them....there's no price to pay. No danger to them.

Maybe it's time that changed. If the cops won't change it, then the people who live among them should.

-=Vel=-

	19-10-2003 19:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber So everyone that don't agree with you are fascist? ...Like Vel said, go back to studying the issue, and let those who can deal with it do what they must.

No I am saying that people who merely want to bust heads in or turn South Africa into a parking lot express fascist symphaties. People can agree with me all they want to, however I would hope that the majority of people in the real world is against vigilante justice.

And how is Vel going to 'deal with it'. He would like to kill them, but us he ready to do that? Would he really go to South Afriaca and seek out those people? Would he be ready to be imprisoned in a South African prison? If he responds with a positive, well I would have to respect that. I do hope however that his familiy and loved ones would have him committed to be treated of his insanity.

	19-10-2003 19:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Yes...at that point by God, SOMETHING needs to be done. If it was your daughter that was next, what? Are you honestly telling me you'd just sit back and wring your hands saying "Oh, there's nothing to be done....we must study this issue to find the root cause?"

Of course not!
From the beginning, I said I understand you guys for wanting revenge. And I'd actually love to watch the quartering of these monsters myself (do you know quartering? That must be the most horrible thing the European Middle Ages has invented).

But the satisfaction one can find in revenge will not change things. The only hope to avoid such horrible gratuitous violence in the future is to adress the root cause. The belief that you and TheMadMonk seem to share, that revenge will solve anything, is wrong.

Revenge won't solve anything, and it may very well make the problem even worse. But damn it feels good.

	19-10-2003 20:04									#47
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Hiyas Spiff! Yep....quartering seems like a good punishment for the SOB's who'd do that sorta thing.

Tripledoc....I'll aske the question again...if your daughter was next on their hit-list, what would your reaction be? Still wanna study? Still wanna rely on the cops to handle it for you? Cops who have demonstrated a complete inabilty to stop it from happening?

Or maybe, just maybe it's personal enough now that you want to go out and DO something, so there's not a "next little girl."

But yeah....that's pretty radical and insane, I know. Not wanting it to happen again, and bein' mad enough to take a stand.

Totally nuts.



-=Vel=-

	19-10-2003 20:04									#48
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What is quartering? Sounds like ripping legs and arms apart at the same time with ropes... no?

	19-10-2003 20:09									#49
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Pekka:
Exactly. Horses pull each rope. The pain is so excruciating that the victim faints, and is waked up by being drenched with fresh water.

I guess we could use cars today instead, but it would probably reduce the slowwlessness of the torture.

	19-10-2003 20:21									#50
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That's pretty horrible.. one can only try to imagine the pain this method causes. Humans are sometimes quite evil.

	19-10-2003 20:23									#51
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quote: Maybe it's time that changed. If the cops won't change it, then the people who live among them should.

A police force which cannot stop 60+ infant rapes a day is unlikely to be what is preventing vigilante justice. Either vigilantism is widespread and we just don't know about it, or (more disturbingly) the parents of the children involved are at best indifferent, or at worst actively participating in the abuse.

	19-10-2003 20:30									#52
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Sandman 60+ infant rapes A DAY?! Jesus...

I've seen a program of rapings in SA ... it was pretty bad, lots of gangrapes, really violent ones, but that was about adult or young women. As if that wasn't bad enough, the infants are in that kind of a danger because sick mofos run free like that? That can't be right.

Well, I don't promote or endorse vigilante kind of behaviour and lynching, but it's a fact this has been going on for a long time and it's not about to stop or get any better so ... I understand that people will take justice to their own hands. Is it the right way? I don't know.. but you have to do something, and if there is no one to protect you and your rights, your human rights, I guess you can call it self defense. Bring justice to those who tries to take it away from you. I don't know if lynching these people is the way to go, but something at least, expose their faces, give them to cops and if they don't do nothing about it.. then make them human pinătas. I don't know, maybe they have already tried it.

It is clear to me, that the people who does these things are either sick and/or have wrong values. THey lack the respect of humans in general. That makes them dangerous, and nothing will help them. So I guess what public can do is to show what kind of measures they are ready to take. Kill'em all is one way. That would show pretty strong statement, that it's not acceptable.

	19-10-2003 21:30									#53
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One possible explanation for the rape of girls in South Africa is that some of these men may believe that sex with a virgin may cure them of AIDs, or at least that the children are less likely to be infected.
Can someone give us an actual breakdown of the age distribution of the victims? Are there really many infants and young children getting raped, or are the majority preteens and young teens? The latter would make more sense if the reason for this behavior had something to do with the myth that sex with a virgin can cure the disease.

	19-10-2003 21:35									#54
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Doc:
In the article, it was said that only one observed case was about curing sickness.

I personally think the "revenge on society" thesis is the best. I can't imagine someone having any sexual pleasure in raping an infant (especially when there is the mother nearby), so the choice to rape an infant must simply be a way to do the most monstrous act deemed possible from a Human. It has to do with the humiliation of indirect victims (relatives), and with the feeling of power towards the rich.

I don't think one rapes an infant by chance or by urge. One rapes an infant to willfully do what humanity rejects the most

	19-10-2003 21:46									#55
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I agree with that assessment, Spiffor. And clearly, "society" as exemplified by the law enforcement agency that is completely incapable of protecting the girls is demonstrably weak and decayed and (in the mind of the rapists) worthy of such hatred and scorn (to them, the fact that they're getting away with it, no reprisals, no risk, is proof positive that they are more powerful, and "right" to hate such a weak society, incapable of defending those who cannot defend themselves).

And until that changes, they're gonna go right on doing what they're doing.

It'd change pretty quickly tho, if people started turning these bastards into roadkill for what they're doing. If the cops can't stop kiddie rapists, then I'm seriously doubting they'd even attempt to try to stop a group of righteously pissed off townsfolk from takin' care of business when they caught one.

-=Vel=-

	19-10-2003 21:49									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Tripledoc....I'll aske the question again...if your daughter was next on their hit-list, what would your reaction be? Still wanna study? Still wanna rely on the cops to handle it for you? Cops who have demonstrated a complete inabilty to stop it from happening? Or maybe, just maybe it's personal enough now that you want to go out and DO something, so there's not a "next little girl." But yeah....that's pretty radical and insane, I know. Not wanting it to happen again, and bein' mad enough to take a stand.

Why does this discussion has to be so on the personal level? What I would do if in any situation is totally uninteresting. Neither am I interested in what you would do. I am merely complaining about the fact that if people wish to personally kill people, then that is a cheap argument, because no one in their right mind would actually take the time and effort to actually go and kill a paedophile, IF that person had not hurt anyone belonging to the family or maybe immediate friends. In that case some might, but even that would be a very insignificant minority.

In other words people can scream and shout all they want about quatering, beating and killing, but it is not going to solve anything.

	19-10-2003 21:54									#57
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Because, Tripledoc, this isn't some bland statistic about some hypothetical crime.

It IS personal. The people it's happening to are real. They are flesh and blood people, get it?

It doesn't GET more personal.

What's occuring in South Africa right now, today, is what's not solving anything.

60/day, every day, 365 days a year.

Sure, research all you want. Find the root cause, and that's awesome. But every day between now and the day you find the miracle cure, whatcha gonna tell the (60* research time_in days) little girls who get raped? You gonna shrug and say "oops...sorry, you shouldn't take it so personally?"

Or maybe, just MAYBE you gonna get angry? Angry enough to DO something besides squirm when it gets personal?

-=Vel=-

	19-10-2003 22:04									#58
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You know Vel, you are right. i'll buy a plane ticket for South Africa tomorrow.

I have some practical problems that maybe you could help me solve.

1)Should I try and buy a gun in South Africa, or should I smuggle one through?

2)Where would I be able to find those perpetrators?

3)What should I do if i in fact find someone and kill him? should I leave the country immediately?

4) What do I do if I am arrested?

	19-10-2003 22:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Why does this discussion has to be so on the personal level? What I would do if in any situation is totally uninteresting. Neither am I interested in what you would do. I am merely complaining about the fact that if people wish to personally kill people, then that is a cheap argument, because no one in their right mind would actually take the time and effort to actually go and kill a paedophile, IF that person had not hurt anyone belonging to the family or maybe immediate friends. In that case some might, but even that would be a very insignificant minority. In other words people can scream and shout all they want about quatering, beating and killing, but it is not going to solve anything.

I disagree with that, because some certain moral codes will make people do things.
There are a lots of young men, who are willing to prove their worth and whatever by fighting things they believe are wrong, most common would be defending women and weaker people. In western countries if you have a fight with a woman you are somewhat likely to get your ass kicked by another man who defends the woman he doesn't even know. More luxury, bigger cities and "me" attitude will reduce this a lot. That's why that doesn't happen so much any more, and only in some backward places like Finland.
That's why tribal cultures have the highest number of these young people proving themselves by trying to fit the shoes of a good person, whatever might that be. That's why it doesn't have to be the closest friend who they step in and help.

	19-10-2003 22:07									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Doc: In the article, it was said that only one observed case was about curing sickness.

I didn't see that. One problem with the article is that it doesn't really give us a handle on the dimensions of the problem. It states that there are 52,000 rapes/year, and maybe many, many more unreported. Fourteen percent of rapes involve a victim age 12 or under. It doesn't tell us the age breakdown, so we don't know whether the vast majority of victims are preteens, with assaults of infants/toddlers being the rare exception, or if in fact the rape of the very young is proportionately substantial. Likewise, we don't know the age distribution of the victims in the study mentioned.

quote: I don't think one rapes an infant by chance or by urge. One rapes an infant to willfully do what humanity rejects the most

Believe it or not, the sexual assault of infants and toddlers occur in the US also