24-10-2003 10:41									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [Well now you get it . God CAN defy logic, because he is God. I don't see how you can say God is omnipotent and then not allow for God to violate logic.

If your god can defy logic, this god will be incomprehensible to humans. As a result, you are just uttering nonsense.

	24-10-2003 11:07									#32
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Lots of logic in this thread.

Here's a question for you: Why is it always the people who profess that they argue only with logic that never use logic correctly or even well, but rather spit out a bunch of terms used in logic theory?

	24-10-2003 18:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber How is this fun? The problem I see with the proofs is that they are self-fullfilling., You define things in the manner that gets the result sought-- I believe that the nature of God is not something universally decided by most religions, except in the most broad strokes. After all If I define or assume that north is South, then I have no problem proving that Canada is south of Mexico. While the assumptions in the proof aren't that bad, the concepts are so capable of variable definition to stretch logic. Lets work backwards on the initial proof You claim God is evil ( is this completely evil or just partially-- I will assume completely This is so as God pursued an evil end-- ( is this necessarily true??-- could an individual do something evil and NOT be evil). God pursued an evil end in creating humans with free will which must be evil as goodness exists in the rest of creation ** Couldn't this be a proof that God is good since all that he created except for free will in humans was good ( a quastionable premise but no more questionable than anything above. ** Your answer is that evil is merely the absence of good but again thats an unproven and debateable premise-- What if your premise is that evil and good can exist in all thinks and that the knowledge of both evil and good resides in GOD etc etc

My point is that these are not my assumptions. These are the assumptions of famous Christian philosophers. I am simply trying to show that their own arguments and logic lack consistency.

And actually, I really wasn't trying to prove that God was evil. I was reading my philosophy text book, found this interesting concept (evil is the absence of good) and decided to see where it could take me.

quote: Originally posted by DaShi Lots of logic in this thread. Here's a question for you: Why is it always the people who profess that they argue only with logic that never use logic correctly or even well, but rather spit out a bunch of terms used in logic theory?

Yah, so... unless you can provide like, an argument or something, I'm really not going to listen to you.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well now you get it . God CAN defy logic, because he is God. I don't see how you can say God is omnipotent and then not allow for God to violate logic.

Generally there are three types of omnipotence given. I don't remember what they are right now, but the one that allows for the destruction of the laws of logic is the most powerful, and thought to be the most impossible.

But then, of course it's impossible, because it violates logic, which means that it's not impossible, because it can violate logic. You kinda have to assume that a being like that created logic, or things start to get very confusing.

	24-10-2003 19:32									#34
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I'll never understand some people's definitions of fun.

	24-10-2003 19:46									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael So, assuming God knows all, he created human beings because they had free will.

You said earlier God created human beings because 'he was bored'...

I liked your argument up to this point. I think you begin to jump to conclusions after this point . For the record, I don't believe in God. I was Christian once though, so I am familiar with the classic 'free will' argument.

quote: But he did not create them so that they could do good, for if he had wished good, he already had that in the rest of creation. Humans only unique utility is their potential for evil.

The Christian assumption is that God created humans so that they could choose Him over evil - otherwise we would be too boring for Him if we only had the capacity to choose Him, wouldn't we? This goes back to your point that 'God was bored'...

*

It's all mysticism to me. If you want to run with the idea that God exists, you can make up all sorts of stories. For all we know, this God may be a lesser God in a hierarchy of Gods. Perhaps we are nothing more than a science project entry in a science fair designed to gain him greater status among Gods. If he gets 3rd prize in the fair, watch out! (Because if God is perfect how could he get only 3rd prize) We might find ourselves thrown in a wastebasket if he gets pissed...

	24-10-2003 19:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi You said earlier God created human beings because 'he was bored'... I liked your argument up to this point. I think you begin to jump to conclusions after this point . For the record, I don't believe in God. I was Christian once though, so I am familiar with the classic 'free will' argument

I tried to show that the only thing that makes humans different from the rest of creation is that they have free will. So, god creates an entire universe without free will, and then creates something with it. I don't see much of a problem with saying that humans then were created because they were independent creatures.

quote: The Christian assumption is that God created humans so that they could choose Him over evil - otherwise we would be too boring for Him if we only had the capacity to choose Him, wouldn't we? This goes back to your point that 'God was bored'...

But God is omniscient, so he had to have known that they would not choose him in all cases. Now, assuming that God is good, why would he willingly create evil in the world just to create a more interesting type of good? He is omnipotent, so he has the ability to create more good than would be produced by humans simply by willing that good into existence, and without having to worry about creating evil.

quote: It's all mysticism to me. If you want to run with the idea that God exists, you can make up all sorts of stories. For all we know, this God may be a lesser God in a hierarchy of Gods. Perhaps we are nothing more than a science project entry in a science fair designed to gain him greater status among Gods. If he gets 3rd prize in the fair, watch out! (Because if God is perfect how could he get only 3rd prize) We might find ourselves thrown in a wastebasket if he gets pissed...

I know that God, if it's up there, doesn't have to be at all like what the thousands of human religions say it's like. I'm just trying to show the flaws in what our human religions say.

	25-10-2003 03:53									#37
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God created evil. Now what does that do to your logic?
Isa 45:7

Last edited by Anun Ik Oba on 25-10-2003 at 03:58

	25-10-2003 04:02									#38
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quote: You kinda have to assume that a being like that created logic

You mean like a God?

	25-10-2003 08:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi We might find ourselves thrown in a wastebasket if he gets pissed...

Why would a god like this care?

YHWH is supposedly infinite, and all of us are finite. Finite into infinite... well, we are all nothing to YHWH.

	25-10-2003 08:24									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Yah, so... unless you can provide like, an argument or something, I'm really not going to listen to you.

I'm not arguing. I only asked a question. Well, now I am.

	25-10-2003 08:30									#41
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quote: Without evil, good would make no sense.

Surprised that this went by unchallenged.

This presumes that Good can only be defined in opposition to something bad, and vice versa.

Consider this, if good and evil were mere opposites, how would we know which was which? Could we not just as easily say that what is evil is good and what is good is evil?

In short, unless you have some external concept of goodness, you could never declare something to be good.

	25-10-2003 08:40									#42
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Isaiah 45:7

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things.

There's a couple problems. Calamity is not necessarily evil. The same with darkness. If one causes a tyrant to stumble would this be considered for good or for ill?

	25-10-2003 08:49									#43
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quote: YHWH is supposedly infinite, and all of us are finite. Finite into infinite... well, we are all nothing to YHWH.

There are many biblical passages that asserts God's love for man, despite his brokeness and sinfulness.

1 Kings 8:22-24

Then Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in front of the whole assembly of Israel, spread out his hands toward heaven and said:

"O LORD , God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven above or on earth below-you who keep your covenant of love with your servants who continue wholeheartedly in your way. You have kept your promise to your servant David my father; with your mouth you have promised and with your hand you have fulfilled it-as it is today. "

God has made many covenants with his people of Israel, and kept them all, he loves us and cares for us, though we are undeserving of his love.

"Who is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?"

	25-10-2003 09:03									#44
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quote: How can a god that is creator of all things and good by its very nature not be evil if evil exists in the universe?"

Consider this argument.

What is the difference between people and Christ? Look at the doctrine of begotten not made. Christ is of the same substance of the Father, as our children are of the same substance as us. Therefore Christ lives without the same sin and brokenness we do, as the Son of God.

Now, consider what it means to be made, sculpted like clay. The clay is of an entirely different substance than you, yet it remains your creation. Just as the pot is only as good as the clay, even the best potter cannot make an indestructable pot of clay, nor can God make a perfect man.

Consider what we are made of, "from the dust of the Earth we come, and from the dust we shall return."
The dust we are made of simply cannot bear the stresses we endure.

Now, we won't always be this way. God promises to give us a much better body after the resurrection.

	25-10-2003 09:12									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Consider this argument. What is the difference between people and Christ? Look at the doctrine of begotten not made. Christ is of the same substance of the Father, as our children are of the same substance as us. Therefore Christ lives without the same sin and brokenness we do, as the Son of God. Now, consider what it means to be made, sculpted like clay. The clay is of an entirely different substance than you, yet it remains your creation. Just as the pot is only as good as the clay, even the best potter cannot make an indestructable pot of clay, nor can God make a perfect man. Consider what we are made of, "from the dust of the Earth we come, and from the dust we shall return." The dust we are made of simply cannot bear the stresses we endure. Now, we won't always be this way. God promises to give us a much better body after the resurrection.

Interesting analogy, though it does go against the idea that God is omnipotent. And I still hold that God, being all-knowing, had to be aware of the fact that the dust could not be perfect, and so he knew that he was creating evil.

An argument that defeats this line of logic would be one that showed that human's were created for something other than good, evil, or free will.

	25-10-2003 09:13									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Surprised that this went by unchallenged. This presumes that Good can only be defined in opposition to something bad, and vice versa. Consider this, if good and evil were mere opposites, how would we know which was which? Could we not just as easily say that what is evil is good and what is good is evil? In short, unless you have some external concept of goodness, you could never declare something to be good.

Ooh, I like that. I very often disagree with your specific opinions, Obiwan (my name is Ben, I just can't call you by your handle), but I like what you say.

	25-10-2003 09:27									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger If your god can defy logic, this god will be incomprehensible to humans. As a result, you are just uttering nonsense.

Until God so chooses to elevate humans to a level where he is comprehensible to us. Do your homework, or don't play.

	25-10-2003 09:40									#48
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quote: though it does go against the idea that God is omnipotent.

Now we get back into Free Will. God placing voluntary limitations on himself does not render him less omnipotent.

It's just hard to figure out why he would make us like the way we are since we only get to peek at a tiny portion of the plan.

	25-10-2003 09:42									#49
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So when are ya gonna respond to my last post in the assisted suicide thread?

	25-10-2003 09:53									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Now we get back into Free Will. God placing voluntary limitations on himself does not render him less omnipotent. It's just hard to figure out why he would make us like the way we are since we only get to peek at a tiny portion of the plan.

No no no, your analogy suggests that God is incapable of creating a perfect man, not that he chooses not to.

quote: even the best potter cannot make an indestructable pot of clay, nor can God make a perfect man.

	25-10-2003 11:54									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Surprised that this went by unchallenged. This presumes that Good can only be defined in opposition to something bad, and vice versa.

Of course. If there were no evil, the notion of good would have never occurred to humans in the first place. If something is unconditionally present, you never realize it is there.

quote: Consider this, if good and evil were mere opposites, how would we know which was which? Could we not just as easily say that what is evil is good and what is good is evil?

What do you mean how we would know? Even an animal knows perfectly well what is good and what is bad for him. IMHO, you overcomplicate the problem a little bit.

BTW, they are opposites, but perhaps not mere opposites.

quote: In short, unless you have some external concept of goodness, you could never declare something to be good.

External or not external doesn't matter for what we are discussing. Without evil present, humans wouldn't be able to grasp the notion of good, no matter how hard the "external" teacher tried to show them. For all his omnipotence, even God would not be able to explain what good is if evil didn't exist.

	26-10-2003 07:15									#52
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Of course. If there were no evil, the notion of good would have never occurred to humans in the first place. If something is unconditionally present, you never realize it is there.

Would God not also be the one who originally posited the existence of something called 'good' and something which contrasted it, called 'evil'? Or do you think that man somehow came up with these two ideas in relation to something which affected him directly?

In order to know what would strike God as good or evil, God would have to have made some attempt to define good and evil, and then he would have had to have an example of what he considered to be good and one of evil, which could simply be the same example.

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond What do you mean how we would know? Even an animal knows perfectly well what is good and what is bad for him. IMHO, you overcomplicate the problem a little bit.

Perhaps God is in all living things, whether self-aware or not, since they have an intrinsic definition of good and bad using their own self as a focus. Knowing what is good or evil for oneself, one may attribute this knowledge to God, and therefore become God by proxy.

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond BTW, they are opposites, but perhaps not mere opposites.

I would say they are more like extremes of one spectrum, the way that violet light is one extreme of the visible spectrum, and red light being the other. A stationary point between them allows us to determine how far away one is from the other, and we can use those relative distances to draw a quantitative comparison. If good is red and evil is violet, and God is, for example, yellow, then God is closer to good than evil. Of course if God is green, then God is closer to evil than good. (For the sake of argument, I'm assuming that the visible spectrum is the range from 400 - 700 nm.)

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond External or not external doesn't matter for what we are discussing. Without evil present, humans wouldn't be able to grasp the notion of good, no matter how hard the "external" teacher tried to show them. For all his omnipotence, even God would not be able to explain what good is if evil didn't exist.

So God needs an example, and probably uses his own experience as that example. Swap out 'I say' with 'God says' and you've effectively become God - a self-taught God.