31-10-2003 22:42									#31
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Catt, when is a game won? When you have reached one of the actual winning conditions or when you know you will win?

I have the quirky habit of actually finishing all my games (just hate to abandon them), so I'd say that a game is formally won when a victory condition is acheived -- but I won't hesitate to call a game "over" or "won" when it is quite clear that defeat is impossible.

quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Once I had crushed Egypt, Cultural Victory would have been mine... once I crushed Carthage and the Celts, no one could compete with me in any way... I could have switched to Democracy about 50 turns ago and be building Theory of Evolution while the others were just researching Magnestism... but I want a DOMINATION victory, because I want to see if I'm up to the challenge of taking large overseas empires down. I do agree with you... and if I was a more advanced player, more assured of my abilities as a warmonger AND builder, I would have made the switch long ago. But I'm earning industrial-era techs at a 4-turn clip and still make ~100 gpt, with large reserves, and that's good enough for me to pursue my greedy ambitions.

That's what I was trying to say but not doing a very good job at it -- if the game is "won" but you're pursuing a certain victory condition, it probably doesn't make much sense to switch governments unless switching is vital to the goal. If your goal is domination and you're into the Industrial Age with a tech lead and a 4-turn pace, I'd just go a-conquering until you hit the threshold -- changing govs would just be a distraction. On the other hand, if you want to make the switch out of game aesthetic concerns then by all means do so -- I tend to do lots of things in my game that aren't optimal plays simply because I have a bit more fun that way.

Re: Markets in Republic -- I'm not as far along the scale as Arrian is, I think. I will often switch to Republic as soon as I can, wheher or not I have any markets, so in that sense I don't think of them as "key" though they are a fantastic improvement. The keys for me in thinking about the switch out of despotism to Republic are the size of my army and the size of my cities -- if all cities are low population, then Republic won't offer a lot of extra gold - with higher populations, Republic tends to be a net gain even absent a single market up and running.

Catt

	31-10-2003 22:47									#32
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Catt:

Say you've got 15 or so cities, with few marketplaces and temples, and access to only 1 or 2 luxuries, and most of your cities are size 6 or larger. Will you switch to Republic and rely on the luxury slider to do your work, when Republic becomes availible? Or will you conquer another luxury and then switch? I know your answer isn't necessarily a prescription for the game, I'm just curious as to your playstyle.

	31-10-2003 23:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Catt: Say you've got 15 or so cities, with few marketplaces and temples, and access to only 1 or 2 luxuries, and most of your cities are size 6 or larger. Will you switch to Republic and rely on the luxury slider to do your work, when Republic becomes availible? Or will you conquer another luxury and then switch? I know your answer isn't necessarily a prescription for the game, I'm just curious as to your playstyle.

I'd almost certainly switch as soon as possible and conquer another luxury. Even if conquering a luxury wasn't possible for some time, I'd probably switch as soon as possible.

If my empire is as you describe it, then I'm somehow keeping my cities out of disorder as a despot -- presumably with 2 MPs per city. I only need to generate 2 content faces per city under Republic to enjoy the same happiness level as the MPs provide -- probably 2 - 3 notches higher on the luxury slider at most. Most of those cities are going to be generating 3 - 4 gold extra, after corruption. The former MPs will either be sent to conquer, or will be disbanded to rush markets.

Catt

	31-10-2003 23:11									#34
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Interesting. Thank you for the reply.

	31-10-2003 23:37									#35
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Sorry - I just had to dash on something quickly and gave a short answer where a longer one is appropriate.

I start thinking about my empire needs and the ultimate switch to Republic early, and the development of my empire and building priorities are shaped by those thoughts. If I allowed my empire to grow into the example you gave, almost certainly one of two things preceded it: (1) I had enough commercial activity that I was relying, effectively, on the luxury slider as a despot, meaning the slider would be even more effective as a Republican, or (2) I relied on MPs in all those cities. I tend to view the widespread use of MPs as wasteful -- a few MPs in a few core cities is fine in many cases, but I am not going to populate all my cities with 2 MPs for the sake of happiness alone; the only reason I would have that many MPs available is if I were planning to use them as a conquering force once their MP duty ended.

So, to arrive at the example empire you gave, I would have long ago concluded that the luxury slider was sufficient for my needs or that an acquisition or two was in the offing and my strike force would do temporary duty as MPs before the attack was launched.

Catt

	31-10-2003 23:40									#36
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Wow! What is the minimum deterrent you keep in a given city early in the game, to prevent a sneak attack? Do you often leave cities undefended in the ancient era, using the luxury slider to keep them happy and hoping overall military power deters aggressors?

	31-10-2003 23:56									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Wow! What is the minimum deterrent you keep in a given city early in the game, to prevent a sneak attack? Do you often leave cities undefended in the ancient era, using the luxury slider to keep them happy and hoping overall military power deters aggressors?

Well, I guess my minimum deterrent would be 0 . I think it is fairly rare to suffer a truly painful sneak attack during the ancient age -- sometimes Bismarck shows up with his bonus units and crushes you before you have a chance to do much of anything, but more often then not, if you get to the point of having 3 or 4 cities, you're pretty safe. The fact is that the AI is not good at building a military road network, and all attacks will be comprised of slow movers for a long while. By concentrating on a decent road network and keeping defenses flexible, you can really defend against an AI attack with very limited forces -- the AI's attack will consist of drips and drabs of 2 or 3 slowmovers at a time, and if you feel shorthanded you can rush a few defenders / attackers pretty quickly.

My early games tend to be either unit heavy for an early offensive, or very unit sparse -- almost nothing but a few border defensive forces. (By the way, I use the term "defenisive forces" not to describe a static fortification of X units in each city, but a roving band of a small number of units that can move to those cities that one or more AI units might be "exploring" a bit too much for my comfort). Required caveat -- map situation influences things of course -- if I discover I am in the center of a pangaea with lots of neighbors, I am almost certainly going to more unit heavy in order to counter multiple threats and in order to make some more room for my empire :evlgrin:

Catt

	01-11-2003 00:04									#38
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Verrrry interesting. I will have to give this approach a shot, perhaps as a "pacifist" civ, sometime soon.

	01-11-2003 00:26									#39
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quote: Re: Markets in Republic -- I'm not as far along the scale as Arrian is, I think. I will often switch to Republic as soon as I can, wheher or not I have any markets, so in that sense I don't think of them as "key" though they are a fantastic improvement. The keys for me in thinking about the switch out of despotism to Republic are the size of my army and the size of my cities

I was generalizing. I often switch to republic earlier too (in fact, I've done it several times now w/o any marketplaces built). But in those cases, though, it's usually because I have several large river cities and/or I'm commercial. That way, I know I can afford to pay my army and use the luxury slider and research. It really helps if I have 3 or more luxuries hooked up.

In my current Japanese game, I didn't have ANY luxuries hooked up until right about the time I switched to Monarchy. I've finally gotten two, and am on my way to #3 (need to connect up a road through hills/jungle or rush 2 harbors). I will have 4 once I smack down China.

I spent a long time fighting an archer war with Mongolia which slowed my expansion (despite rushing the Pyramids with an early leader). Also, my homeland is almost all plains, so I had to irrigate tiles before my cities could grow normally. Plus, since I hit Mongolia so early, I only actually captured 1 city (Karakorum). I razed another. I actually had to build settlers and found cities around Karakorum (FP) myself. A large worker troupe has finally gotten over there to help out with irrigating/roading/chopping. At this point, with the 2 luxuries, temples (mmm religious! haven't been religious in a while), and several large river cities building marketplaces, I'd like to switch to republic. But I don't have it yet, and neither do any of my neighbors. I suppose I should go get it before I do construction.

3 billion yr. worlds can be funky. I haven't seen this many plains in a while.

-Arrian

	01-11-2003 01:26									#40
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But Arrian, assuming you have no/few luxuries, under what conditions would you consider switching to a Republic, early? And how do you define early?

In the example above, you switched to Monarchy to wage war... yet I've heard you mention early Republic-based wars in numerous other threads many times.

Please enlighten us, sensei.

	01-11-2003 02:01									#41
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Define early:

- Early would mean as soon as I get republic, and assume that I've pretty much beelined right at it. Sometimes I research the republic itself at 40 turn pace (so I have a bunch of money when I become a republic), but most of the time, I'll be going close to flat-out toward republic after I go get pottery.

assuming you have no/few luxuries, under what conditions would you consider switching to a Republic, early? :

Let's say I've got 1 luxury. This means either I'm on my own island (I've had that happen as Rome, and yeah, I used republic) or I went with a peaceful opening and just got a bit unlucky with the luxury resource distribution.

In the first case (own island), I'd definitely go republic, build almost zero military, and throw everything into my economy. Rome is actually quite good in that situation, because being commercial helps with money, corruption, and means you are closer to both Republic and Mapmaking. Militaristic means you can build 1/2 cost harbors. With a couple of granary-fed settler/worker pumps, I can get my home island developed and then pump up the coastal cities in size to rake in the cashola. THEN I build the army, load it on boats, and start whacking people.

In the second case... well, I'd have to feel that more luxuries weren't far from being in my grasp (either via conquest, rexing, or trade) and I'd probably also have to have a relatively small military to do the switch "early." After markets/libraries I would build up the military some more.

I've had a lot of success lately fighting ancient wars with relatively small numbers of units. In my most recent Roman game, I fought 3 ancient era wars, yet I switched to republic ASAP. Granted, I think I had 3 luxuries w/o having to fight for them, so that helped.

What I tend to do is this: my capitol builds a granary and becomes the settler/worker pump. The first group of cities built out from the capitol, however, build barracks and some troops. One city will probably be devoted to the Colossus. The troops will often be archers at first, with some warriors and chariots mixed in. The occasional spearman gets built too.

The archers' purpose is to harrass a civ or two (hit settler teams, steal workers, kill lone units that feebly attempt to fight back). Slowly, my archer force will grow, and I'll eventually decide I have enough to take a city or two. Then I'll go do that. All the while, I'm rexing more or less flat-out. My "war" is probably being fought with about 5 units. Again, those force levels are good for Monarch, not Emperor (in case anyone here didn't know that was my level of preference). I take my time, accumulating elites, trying to get leaders. Meanwhile, the homeland is getting built up. If my archers are doing a good job (staying alive), then I will switch over production to chariots and start stockpiling those for a horseman upgrade.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is this: at first, my military probably really isn't that big. I'm very aggressive with it, but the numbers aren't scary. That is probably why I can sustain it as a republic. Add in the luxuries I take over by beating on a neighbor or two, and things tend to work out nicely. I *have* screwed up before, though. The Case-in-Point would be a recent Japanese game (not the one I was just talking about) where I overbuilt my military and switched to republic when I had 2 luxuries.

-Arrian

	01-11-2003 03:07									#42
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Marketplace is a late tech as you have to research so many other techs to even get to Republic and you need most of the others for one thing or another.

This is not a real problem as you need to have a decent productionin the city to build it in a timely manner. I may rush it in any city that need the happy boost.

	03-11-2003 16:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Catt If my empire is as you describe it, then I'm somehow keeping my cities out of disorder as a despot -- presumably with 2 MPs per city. I only need to generate 2 content faces per city under Republic to enjoy the same happiness level as the MPs provide -- probably 2 - 3 notches higher on the luxury slider at most. Most of those cities are going to be generating 3 - 4 gold extra, after corruption. The former MPs will either be sent to conquer, or will be disbanded to rush markets. Catt

Exactly
I tend to go to Republic when not using a commercial civ. I try to make sure my conquests dont last more than 5 turns at a time because war weariness tends to kick back hard. This is in emperor and usually with 2 luxuries. Entertainment set from 20 to 30 percent during warring, and generally lacking collies and cathies.

	03-11-2003 17:04									#44
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Arrian's comment on the granary in the capital is very true. For me, a granary in my second city is the first step in staying alive in emperor.

Personally, I do not consider markets such a late tech. Last game playing as Chinese I went alphabet in 40 turns (min research), math in about 34 (max research up to 2 turns prior to completion, at which point I set it as low as possible) then currency in about 34 turns straightline. Math tends to get me iron working, horseback, etc in trades. However I got lucky with pottery and ceremonial burial last game.
The great thing about Republic is that you can use a weak military in very effective quick invasions (ending in quick peace treaties) because they're not forced to act as MPs.
I don't recall any sneak attacks. I only worry if the other civ starts walking into my culture squares. In late Ancient Age I dont mind keeping a weaker army if the other civ is a Republic.

	03-11-2003 20:09									#45
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Ah, another interesting government related question that I've never thought about, or run across:

Does the government of an AI affect what they build? Of course it affects what they have the capability of building, but does it affect what they actually build?

Another q: Does your government choice affect what the AI builds, especially in so far as military is concerned?

	03-11-2003 22:33									#46
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Puma my comment about late tech was for having republic and then getting markets. In you scenario, you do not have repbulic and none of the other key tech for survivial (BW/IW/HBR).

Republic has so many requiste techs that by the time you have it and start to get Currency, you have most of the ancient techs, that is what I was saying.

	09-11-2003 20:24									#47
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Oops, my mistake regarding your comment on republic.

I tend not to research Bronze Working, Iron Working, Horseback riding myself. Bronze Working I can get from Alphabet or Warrior Code trades, usually. Ironworking from a Math trade. Horsebackriding I usually don't have by this time, but I get the wheel asap - usually with a math trade so that I know where the horse is - before that I do with spearmen and swordsmen. It does work. Writing I get from a Currency trade, sometimes I can get construction with it.

True regarding Republic prerequisites. For me, with the way I play, I tend to go for Currency so quickly that I have already pop rushed a few markets by the time Republic comes around.

	10-11-2003 00:17									#48
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It has all changed with C3C. So back to the drawing boards. SGL will force people to change tactic.

	11-11-2003 14:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Does the government of an AI affect what they build? ... Does your government choice affect what the AI builds, especially in so far as military is concerned?

For the first question, I doubt it. I heard that they do not use the luxury slider. From city investigations, I've noticed that ALL cities tend to have colesseums (sp?), cathedrals, police stations. I have seen this even when they get wonders like Suffrage. I think the building of city improvements is based on city development and squares. I once noticed one large Aztec empire with only two harbours - connecting one small island to a continent that had a few seaside towns.

Regarding military, I doubt it as well... from the programmer's point of view, I'm sure it would be a lot of trouble to try that to work. There may be so many civs with various goverment types and with treaties getting set and broken all the time - it seems pointless. I think the AI just builds its military as well as it's designed to on its own terms. I think they're all pretty good at keeping old units and upgrading as much as they can.