26-10-2003 20:42									#1
	Why do Israeli settlements exist at all ? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I wonder.
It is obvious the Israeli settlements will be the bone of contention between the Israelis and the Palestinians as long as they'll exist. It is obvious the Israelis will mobilize a disproportionate military force to protect these villages/towns from expectable attacks, while it is obvious the Pals will never cease to loathe said colonies for dividing their territory, taking their water reserves, and show them hated Israeli soldiers in their daily life.

Now, I'm a comprehensive guy. There are plenty of mistakes made by both sides that can be explained. As much as I think the wall is a bad idea, I can understand that the Israelis are trying anything to get more security. Ans as much as I loathe terrorism, I can understand that the Palestinians will try anything to get revenge from their humiliations.

But I really can't get the use of the colonies. Why do they exist at all? In the past, there would have been a point, i.e the wet dream of possessing Eretz Israel, but today? What is the use of these colonies at all? Why do colonies contiue to be built, legally or illegally, with only a token resistance from the Israeli government?

	26-10-2003 21:04									#2
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In case you think it is a troll, it's not.

I have genuinely no idea of the purpose of the settlements. I really don't know why they exist at all, and why they get built even more...

	26-10-2003 21:05									#3
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That's a good question, and one I hadn't considered before. Why bother building the settlements?

	26-10-2003 21:17									#4
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quote: But I really can't get the use of the colonies. Why do they exist at all? In the past, there would have been a point, i.e the wet dream of possessing Eretz Israel, but today? What is the use of these colonies at all? Why do colonies contiue to be built, legally or illegally, with only a token resistance from the Israeli government?

They really serve no purpose nowadays. As Bush said, the Israelis are just building these settlements so that the Palestinians can occupy them in the future. Unless Israel wants to have a demographic fight on their hands which they are likely to lose, they'll have to give up the territory.

As it stands, these settlements are some of the most expensive real estate in the world in terms of how much the Israeli economy has lost to them and how much international resources (geopolitical, etc.) is put into defending them.

	26-10-2003 21:34									#5
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Point is, those settlements are the direct continuation of the first settlements. 55 years ago, the bone of contention was Tel-Aviv.

The real question is, do the palestinians still want the entire cake. If you ask my opinion of the palestinian public opinion, then I say "Yes".

	26-10-2003 21:41									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The real question is, do the palestinians still want the entire cake. If you ask my opinion of the palestinian public opinion, then I say "Yes".

So that justifies you wanting the entire cake as well?

	26-10-2003 21:45									#7
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No, it justifies not giving them any of the cake the Israelis now hold, because it won't stop the aggression.

	26-10-2003 21:46									#8
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Actually, I don't even think the colonies show you wanting to have the entire cake. They are too few in this regard, and the territorial continuity is insufficient between them. I mean, had you expelled all Palestinians between you border and Ariel, that would have been consisten with an agressively expansionist policy, but you didn't even do that.

Since you are having less and less interactions with Palestinians within your borders, I don't quite get why you bother not being simply defensive about them. It's not like your borders are a daily and very real humiliation to many Palestinians (unlike the colonies which prevent Pals to move, well, which take water resources, which display Israeli soldiers etc.)

	26-10-2003 21:46									#9
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Lemme see, what's the point of trying to compromise, if the other side doesn't want it? most Israelis support a very good border, allowing 95% of the west bank given to the palestinians, PLUS a road from the gaza strip to the west bank. Our only serious request is withdrawing the demand to bring the refugees and their offspring to Israel, that would destroy Israel and it's society.

We're "Paying a high price" only if we assume that this is what prevents a peace deal from forming. Is it so? I don't think so.

	26-10-2003 21:48									#10
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker No, it justifies not giving them any of the cake the Israelis now hold, because it won't stop the aggression.

I am pretty sure all Palestinians now know their dream to repel the Jews back to the sea is unrealistic (even if they wish). After all, even the PLO has stopped asking for the destruction of Israel, and acknowledges the existence of the Israeli state.

	26-10-2003 21:50									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am pretty sure all Palestinians now know their dream to repel the Jews back to the sea is unrealistic (even if they wish). After all, even the PLO has stopped asking for the destruction of Israel, and acknowledges the existence of the Israeli state.

Then the question that you asked and I answered doesn't apply in the first place. You asked if them wanting the entire cake justified wanting the entire cake. If the premise of your question is untrue, then of course the answer won't apply.

	26-10-2003 21:50									#12
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quote: I am pretty sure all Palestinians now know their dream to repel the Jews back to the sea is unrealistic (even if they wish). After all, even the PLO has stopped asking for the destruction of Israel, and acknowledges the existence of the Israeli state.

Well you're wrong. Though the PLO isn't asking for the destruction of Israel, it's hasn't forfeited the "RoR", and therefor, nothing has REALLY changed, i.e. They've magnanimously declared that when they take over, they'll allow us to stay. Gee, thanks!

	26-10-2003 21:53									#13
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Whose got the cake?

	26-10-2003 22:02									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel [q] They've magnanimously declared that when they take over, they'll allow us to stay. Gee, thanks!

Is it?

The PLO’s position regarding the issue of borders is simple: the international borders between the states of Palestine and Israel shall be the armistice cease-fire lines in effect on June 4, 1967. Both states shall be entitled to live in peace and security within these recognized borders.
Doesn't look like their official position is to take over Israel to me

	26-10-2003 22:05									#15
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What about the "RoR"?
Guess what would happen if we add to the population of Israel some 3.5 Million Palestinians? Since birth control and family planning is only something that infidels do, in a matter of a couple of years, palestinians, and the arab citizens of Israel will become the majority, and then what?

	26-10-2003 22:09									#16
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I know the Palestinians haven't dropped the return of refugees. But for a reason, they were able not to mention it too loudly for 7 years

Besides, I think you Israelis should think about your society anyways. Return of Refugees or not, you're gonna be outnumbered by Arabs at some point. Then, you'll have either to expel them again, or you'll have to rethink your society.

	26-10-2003 22:16									#17
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quote: I know the Palestinians haven't dropped the return of refugees. But for a reason, they were able not to mention it too loudly for 7 years

Why should they? Remember, before that, the PLO leadership was in Tunis! Now they're back in west bank, and gaza strip, have well-paying jobs, and command forces with the scale that they only managed to command before 82', when they were crushed by Israel in Lebanon. They were back from "forgotten guerilla" status to "de-facto country" status, by this, nullifying the results of the Lebanon war vis a vis Israel, and even gaining more ground!

quote: Besides, I think you Israelis should think about your society anyways. Return of Refugees or not, you're gonna be outnumbered by Arabs at some point. Then, you'll have either to expel them again, or you'll have to rethink your society.

I know that. But this is true for France, as well.

	26-10-2003 22:23									#18
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quote: But I really can't get the use of the colonies. Why do they exist at all?

Mostly they exist to punish the Palestinians for refusing to sign a comprehensive peace accord ("If you don't sign then we'll take even more land") and also so that Israel will have something to trade to the Palestinians for peace. I.E. "If you sign the peace deal we will dismantle the settlements."

	26-10-2003 22:29									#19
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The Eretz Israel dream still exists. The logic is that even if we dont eventually get the entire west bank of the Jordan, we will at least get as much land as possible from Judea&Samaria thanks to huge settlements that, because of their size, will be impossible to remove.

	26-10-2003 22:30									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I.E. "If you sign the peace deal we will dismantle the settlements."

This is actually a very good reason.

	26-10-2003 22:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Eli The Eretz Israel dream still exists. The logic is that even if we dont eventually get the entire west bank of the Jordan, we will at least get as much land as possible from Judea&Samaria thanks to huge settlements that, because of their size, will be impossible to remove.

Nah. If it would be so, the construction of the settlements would be more dense, and close to the Israeli borders.

	26-10-2003 22:32									#22
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There's an alternative to RoR: compensation. Yeah, it was wrong to kick you out, but it was more than half a century ago, so take this in return for giving up your claims.

It recognizes the legitimacy of Palestinian grievances (which even Ben Gurion acknowledged), while preserving the "Jewish character" of Israel, whatever that's supposed to mean.

And it's not as if the Israelis would have to pay anything, anyway, since the ultimate source of funds would almost certainly be the US taxpayer.

	26-10-2003 22:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Nah. If it would be so, the construction of the settlements would be more dense, and close to the Israeli borders.

But that's exactly the situation. Most of the settlers are in settlements around Jerusalem and close to the green line. Ariel is pretty much the only big exception.

	26-10-2003 22:46									#24
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quote: There's an alternative to RoR: compensation. Yeah, it was wrong to kick you out, but it was more than half a century ago, so take this in return for giving up your claims

But forfeiting the RoR undersuch conditions wasn't agreed by the palestinians. They wanted it to remain an option to the refugees.

	26-10-2003 22:46									#25
	Re: Why do Israeli settlements exist at all ? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Why do they exist at all?

At the start, they were largely set up for the purposes of self defense - Israel under the '67 borders is a lot harder to defend than one that has wider borders, control of strategic points like the Golan Heights, etc - especially with the other side refusing to talk peace. (well, with a few exceptions, like the old city of Jerusalem, etc, although defense probably played a part in that too.)

Since then, it's moved more towards "owning Greater Israel" (at least at the policy side) - a sizeable minority of the settlers themselves aren't religious, and live there because it's cheaper to do so.

quote: Why do colonies contiue to be built, legally or illegally, with only a token resistance from the Israeli government?

The nature of Israeli politics (ie, having a coalition of a lot of parties), as well as an issue of negotiations- "You're not working on cracking down terrorism, so why should we reward you by dismantling settlements?". Indeed, Arafat has been a brilliant negotiator during the Oslo process, winning a lot of concessions while giving little or nothing in return. This is just a taste of his own medicine.

However,
most of the settlement growth falls within the area that the Clinton proposal would have had given to Israel, making the Clinton proposal still a viable solution.

	26-10-2003 22:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Eli But that's exactly the situation. Most of the settlers are in settlements around Jerusalem and close to the green line. Ariel is pretty much the only big exception.

Jerusalem is an exception.

	26-10-2003 22:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Jerusalem is an exception.

Jerusalem isn't dense and isn't next to the green line?

	26-10-2003 23:02									#28
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That's why I said that it was an exception. Generally this is not the case, and the settlements are scattered. The settlements around Jerusalem are basically neighbourhoods. Another exception is Ariel. In both cases, the amount of territory is still very small, and Israel has agreed to exchange some other land for it.

	26-10-2003 23:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel That's why I said that it was an exception. Generally this is not the case, and the settlements are scattered. The settlements around Jerusalem are basically neighbourhoods. Another exception is Ariel. In both cases, the amount of territory is still very small, and Israel has agreed to exchange some other land for it.

Well, the settlements are scattered, but the vast majority of the settlers are living in dense settlements near the Israeli border.

If anything, Ariel is an exception in the other way (I think that's what Eli meant) in that it's further away from the border than most of the dense settlements).

I think both you and Eli were asrguing the same side of the argument.

	26-10-2003 23:07									#30
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I think that "the truth is somewhere in the middle" is a better way to put it.