15-10-2000 05:47									#1
	Need opinions on new scenario Increase Your PM Length

Now that Napoloen is finished, and Hundred years war 2.1 is almost finished I have decided to embark on a new project, namely Europe in 1400.

I have decided on 5 of the 7 civilisations

England
France
Spain (castile)
Holy Roman Empire
Ottoman Turks

now I have to make a decision on the other two, the choices are

Denmark
Poland (Southern and central Poland, western Ukraine, Moldova)
Hungry (Hungry, Romainia, south west Ukraine)
Eygpt (Eygpt, eastern Libya, Syria, Isreal, Jordon, Lebanon)
Papal states
Teutonic states (Northern Poland, Lithuainia, Latvia, estonia, Kalingrad (Russia))
Lithuainia (Belarus, Nothern Ukraine)
Aragon (would mean spliting Spain)
Portugal
Sweden
or an idependent civ covering many of these.


I would like your opinions on which two were most important to Europe in 1400 - c.1550?

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	15-10-2000 07:27									#2
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"Hungry"

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"There is no more illustrious history than the history of the Magyar Nation... The whole civilized world is indebted to Magyarland for its historic deeds."
-Theodore Roosevelt, to the Hungarian Parliament,
April 2, 1910

	15-10-2000 09:19									#3
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In 1400 Lithuania and Poland were a single large (and very powerful) nation. I would definitely include it. (I don't know if it was called Poland or Lithuania, since it was a union of both, with neither dominating.)

What additional civs you pick depend on where you want the focus of the scenario to be. With only 7 civs, you cannot possibly include all the major interactions of that time period. Do you want the focus to be the interactions among the west European powers? Or the growth of the Hapsburg empire through marriage and conquest? Or the growth of the Ottoman Empire? Or the conflicts in Eastern Europe? Or Scandinvia? Or Northern Italy? Or maybe the major economic powers: Venice, Genoa, Pisa, the Hanseatic League, Flanders, the Medicis, the Fuggers.

You have to choose. The possibilities are endless.

	15-10-2000 09:51									#4
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Portugal obviously, they were a big part in world exploration in that time period. Chris Columbus and most european explorers were Portugal in blood and living in another country,and saild for that coutry, or sailed for Portugal.
Portugal and Hungary would be my choices. I forgot if u had the russians or not, but they were also rising to power and a powerful nation during this time.
What about Sweden? They were a powerful country themselves at one point. I don't remember if it was during this time period of yours, but they were defeating russia and another country in a war but lost after awhile.

	15-10-2000 13:10									#5
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Sounds interesting. Hmm, I wouldn´t include the Teutonic states, their golden ages was over around 1400 (Tannenberg 1410), Poland seems better if the scn will cover only europe.
Portugal is a must if your map include oversea territories. The Ottomans can be Barbarians...

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Civ2000

	15-10-2000 13:31									#6
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Poland for sure, COckney... maybe walking in your shoes I put in Portugal also.

PS If you need help, i have a lot of 1400's pics...

	15-10-2000 15:34									#7
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Thanks everyone for your opinions.

Helios,

Are you sure about Poland and Lithuainia?, my map says that they were two different states. (However is it a French map and has Part of Wales as independent in 1400!)

I am not yet sure what the focus of the scenario will be, however I do know that the Ottomans can't be barbarians, they were vital in shaping the history of Europe at this time.

Bebro, Suntzu,

The scenario covers Europe only (anything else might require making a map!)

Prom,

Thanks, I need all the help I can get

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	15-10-2000 16:37									#8
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Wales was in revolt during this time. Lithunia and Poland were two states. My suggestion would be:
Sweden, which was then a transcandinavian state, consisting of sweden, Norway and Denmark (from 1397-1412) and Hungary. But you should somehow have the papal ghost floating around.

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after the second one;
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	15-10-2000 18:35									#9
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Thanks stefen,

I think I'll put the Papal staes (central italy) under Holy Roman Empire control, I'll give sicily to spain and maybe southern Italy (kingdom of naples) as well, I think I will include Hungry as a rampart to protect against the Ottomans, and also to threatern Germany.

However I'm still undecided between Poland (I would probably unite them with Lithuainia) and Sweden.

Thanks everyone for your help so far

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Windows 98 (windoze) a 32 bit extention of a 16 bit graphical shell for an 8 bit operating system, origalanly coded for a 4 bit processor by a 2 bit company who can't stand one bit of competition!

	16-10-2000 09:07									#10
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I collected a lot of material from this sites, COckney; i think these will help you a lot...
www.elisena.com
www.aitnamodel.com

If you need it i found a XV century "yeniceri" pic on another site, just tell and i'll send it to you.
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited October 15, 2000).]

	15-10-2000 23:38									#11
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Nice sites, Prometeus

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Civ2000

	16-10-2000 00:03									#12
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in 1386 Poland and Lithuania formed a union. I'm not sure how long this union lasted, but I would assume that it lasted well after 1400. Their combined territory was huge. I know I've bookmarked a few maps of this time period, if I find them I'll post links.

	16-10-2000 01:09									#13
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Poland and Lithuania were 1 country, so one off
your list. The union lasted up to the third partage in 1795.

	16-10-2000 07:06									#14
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1. Although initially hesitant, Lithuania finally jumped into the union after being defeated in 1399 by the Golden Horde.

2. I recommend using these partly inaccurate civs:

Spain (Spain, Aragon, Sicily, Naples, Austria)
Poland (Poland, Lithuania, Moldavia)
France (France, Genoa)
England (England, Ireland, Acquitaine)
Union of Kalmar (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Shetlands, Iceland)
Ottomans
Neutrals (Portugal, Navarre, HRE, Venice, Teutonic Knights, Mamlukes, Hungary, Russia)
Barbarians (Burgundy, Bohemia, Granada, Marinids, Hafsids, Scotland, Golden Horde, Empire of Timur, and Serbia)

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St. Leo
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	16-10-2000 10:52									#15
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I agree with that, except that I would add to the Neutrals the remnants of the Byzantine Empire, ie Constantinople, Trebizond, Epirus, and the southern Peleponessus (sp?). Additionally, I believe that some of the Latin holdings left in the Balkans belonged to Aragon at this point, and could thus belong to Spain.


The only other powers not well represented in that scheme are Burgundy, which controlled Flanders, the Franche Comte in the HRE, and the Burgundy region of France; and the Luxembourg dunasty, which controlled Luxembourg, Bohemia, the Lusatia and Brandenburg regions, as well as other parts of the northern HRE, and was at this point a chief rival of the Hapsburg family.

Other than that, St. Leo's scheme seems about right.


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-Helios

	16-10-2000 12:29									#16
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Consider using the barbarians for some of the minor states. Hungary, Sweden, Aragon, Egypt and Burgundy might be suitable. They are all well separated from each other, so it should work OK. Putting the Papal States under the HRE makes sense, perhaps also the Teutonic Knights.

	16-10-2000 15:32									#17
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LOL!

I'd love to playtest this when it comes out, but reading about the exact territorial changes makes me reminisce about that Black Adder quote (something about allying with Hungary

-KhanMan of Sayen
First Minister of Machiavellia
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	18-10-2000 02:37									#18
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Thanks for the feedback guys,

just on a couple more things,

Does anyone have pictures of Hungurian, Ploish and Russian soldiers from that time?

also I would very much like to use a couple of Bebro's units from cross and cresent, is this ok BeBro?

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	18-10-2000 17:59									#19
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The Turkish siege of Beograd is on the run to your e-mail, COckney... with a whole bunch of hungarian units in it ! Check out my previous links for other nations...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited October 18, 2000).]

	18-10-2000 23:25									#20
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cheers prom

help much appricated as always,

also thanks to the mods for deleting my tripple post (damn my isp)

Things are coming along nicely, about half the units are done (mostly borrowed and modified), and I already have an idea of what the tech tree will look like.
The terrain is also looking good with new (well heavily modified ) plains and scrub terrain, the forest and grassland are looking good as well (lifted from 100 years war) and also an entirely new farm land terrain, whcih I am rather proud of. I will probably do the city placement next week, and then start the events file, with any luck I should get this scenario finished fairly quickly (famous last words ).

Final notes

Shaka nadur,

I hope you get your waterloo scenario finished, if you need any help, then I would more than happy to oblige.

Jesus,

Oooops I forgot to credit you for those city graphics, I will fix this (along with the 900 other errors you pointed out in V1.1)

Also can I use a couple of your units (slightly modified) for my 1400 scenario?

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Windows 98 (windoze) a 32 bit extention of a 16 bit graphical shell for an 8 bit operating system, origalanly coded for a 4 bit processor by a 2 bit company who can't stand one bit of competition!

	19-10-2000 18:09									#21
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Cockney, the C&C units are mostly from earlier times (10-13th century). However, feel free to use them...

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Civ2000

	19-10-2000 23:04									#22
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COckney, I posted an armour collection to you, but your e-mail is full...
I'll try another time tomorrow...
See ya, Prom

	20-10-2000 00:27									#23
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sorry about that, I still have your beograd siege in my inbox (thanks for that by the way, I now have some hungurian heavy infanrty )

I will delete some spam to free up space

Thanks Bebro, I am mostly using your siege units whcih didn't change a huge amount in that time (until the cannon was introduced) , and the units are so good as well

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Windows 98 (windoze) a 32 bit extention of a 16 bit graphical shell for an 8 bit operating system, origalanly coded for a 4 bit processor by a 2 bit company who can't stand one bit of competition!