29-10-2003 07:41									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by zorbop I do not think militaristic would be that useful. you really only need 1 harbor per island for trading.

The harbor issue is not about trading -- it is about city growth and commerce production. On archipelago maps, most of your worked tiles could/should be water tiles -- if you limit yourself to available land squares, you've given up a huge potential advantage. However, in order to make coastal and sea tiles workable, you need a harbor -- without a harbor, each tile produces only one food, meaning a citizen laborer needs food from elsewhere to survive; with a harbor, all water tiles produce two food, meaning each citizen laborer is self-sufficient and the city continues to grow. And each coastal tile worked produces substantial commerce -- having a size 12 city with 10 citizens working coast / sea produces tremendous commerce, but you need a harbor to have such a powerhouse (and you need that gold to rush improvements like markets and libraries to take advantage of the gold in such a shield-poor environment).

Catt

	29-10-2003 08:47									#32
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So very true.

	29-10-2003 22:22									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok after all the interesting comments and much consternation, I have picked Japan. Mainly I took the sage advice of Dom and Catt for the Military trait and want to have Religious as well. I have been doing with out industrious lately anyway and may as well get use to it. It has been a long time since I used Japan and they have the proper traits as well as a non ancient era UU. I really wanted to avoid a sword type UU.
Now all I have to do is stop playing the two new games I got this week. I finally figured out how to get the Servants Of The Dark campaign to show up this morning and hate to even stop to go back to the Warlords game. Any I had paln to start around Friday, so I should make that date.
Thanks for all the input, I enjoyed.

	29-10-2003 22:23									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Here is the settings:

Attachment: clipboard.jpg
This has been downloaded 99 time(s).

	29-10-2003 22:31									#35
	Very smart move picking the Japanese! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Here is the settings:

vmxa1: Okay, good selection by picking Japan, but I gotta ask you something:

What is that on your taskbar "Alcohol 120"?

Will you trade that luxury item with me? How about for this pile of iron I got over here, a MPP, a ROP, and 5 gold?

	30-10-2003 00:47									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

MMM, intercontinental invasions with Samurai... mmmm.

But on Deity, surely the AI has *at least* musketmen before you can field your Sams. Ack!

-Arrian

	30-10-2003 05:49									#37
	Re: Very smart move picking the Japanese! Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner What is that on your taskbar "Alcohol 120"?

It is a virtual CD app. It will copy (ala CloneCD) a cd into an image on your hard drive and then you can load any game without the CD being inserted. I love it, but you have to have a large HD to hold the whole CD when you have lots of games. It can burn the images back out, but I have no use for that feature.
I heard about it on TechTV and bought it from the web.
They are always updating it so it can handle all the lates schemes and black list. I had to wait for the lastest version to get it to copy Moo3, but it works now.

	30-10-2003 05:50									#38
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I love the look on Tokugawa's face. Sort of hung over or needing sleep.

	30-10-2003 07:25									#39
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Heh. He has a tooth missing, which makes him look a lot meaner when he grimaces or snarls at you when he's "furious" or "annoyed" with you.

Good luck with the Archipalego map. I don't have PTW, so I have to use the map editor to create arcipalego maps. What a pain.

By the way, I heard if I buy C3C, I get all the features of C3C... AND all the features and improvements of PTW. Is that right?

Or do I have to buy C3C and PTW both?

	30-10-2003 08:22									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

You get both, so wait till next week.

	30-10-2003 10:27									#41
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

vxma1, can't go wrong with Japan. Haven't played them in forever, but remember one of my FAVORITE things to do: Cavs and Sammies *together* are a basically unstoppable attack force, especially across tough territory.

	30-10-2003 11:13									#42
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In the vanilla/PTW I would suggest civs with militaristic (cheap harbours) and religious (cheap temples&short anarchy). Industrious wouldn't be that good, since after all there isn't much land to improve.

In C3C I would choose seafaring (no-brainer) and religious.

	30-10-2003 13:20									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Vikings!!

Being deity it's quite likely you will be behind in techs at the start of the middle ages, vikings are good even against muskets. That alone is worth the fact that expansionist would be not so useful on this type of map.

	31-10-2003 05:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Vikings!! Being deity it's quite likely you will be behind in techs at the start of the middle ages, vikings are good even against muskets. That alone is worth the fact that expansionist would be not so useful on this type of map.

I was sorely tempted to use them, just to please Theseus, but I wanted to use one of the original civs. So many of them have seen little action in my games in the past year or so, it will be like a fresh game.

	31-10-2003 05:19									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Vikings!! Being deity it's quite likely you will be behind in techs at the start of the middle ages, vikings are good even against muskets.

I forgot to say that I am not worried about being behind, I am worried about never being even or ahead.

	31-10-2003 07:00									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey vma1, believe me, had you picked any of Japan, Rome, or Persia, I would have been / am just as happy as Scandy.

[singing] These are a few of my favorite Ciiivs![end singing]

	31-10-2003 08:51									#47
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Theseus is singing.... *Rhoth shudders

The only problem is I agree with him. Those are some of my favorite UUs too.

	31-10-2003 09:59									#48
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Now you put that song in my head, I will have to look for my copy and play it while I play.

	31-10-2003 13:23									#49
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Could you post your 4000bc save vmxa?
This should be an interesting game.

	31-10-2003 21:59									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ok, I was debating on posting it as I figured it was not going to be appealing to all that many. I am going to finish the current scenario of Warlords IV today and then start it (regardless of finishing).

Attachment: tokugawa of the japanese, 4000 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	01-11-2003 05:47									#51
	Put an end to popups!

I decided to try your idea for a final PTW game with archipelago, but on emperor and I chose the Vikings. The expansionist trait turned out to be useful because my scouts spotted English settlers coming my way, and my 1 warrior was able to intercept and defeat two such warrior/settler pair. I actually had an opportunity to pull a GL in around 2500 BC! (but missed ) I had to fight them or have no room for a 2nd city! As it was, I didn't found my 2nd city until 1990 BC. The Berserkers were cool and made capturing the Korean island south of me relatively painless. The other strange thing about this game was the fact that my 3 largest rivals were all scientific civs. (Russia, Ottoman, Germany). I was first into the Modern Age and started researching computers. Ottoman and Germany, must of bootstrapped each other in the M. Age because when I next looked they each had Fission and Rocketry. I traded with Russia and boosted them into the Age and they got Ecology! I didn't realize any of this until I noticed the leader heads change seemingly on the same turn. I was lucky to see this opportunity to buy Ecology and sell Fission and Rocketry getting most of my gold back. Launched in 1810 with 32 more hours down the drain

	01-11-2003 07:26									#52
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I just started that save.... and that is one kickass starting possition! btw, what is the map size?

	01-11-2003 11:10									#53
	Inflate your Upload Space

Std map and it has as good stuff, except bonus food is scares, but I don't want it anyway. Don't know how much you have seen but I only found two hut and one civ. It was stuck with some jungle.
I had almost forgot how scaring it is to see 8-10 troops traipsing around near you capitol before you even get a second city.
I eliminated them in 290BC and spotted one galley. That lead to 4 civs, I still do not have map making. Enough for today. Oh I am in last place and not within hailing distance of the top dogs, it sure is fun huh?

	01-11-2003 11:27									#54
	Put an end to popups!

I forgot how depressing it is to keep getting those annoucements about this or that wonder and not even having the tech to make it, let alone be first. I did real well aginst the troop, but the warrior barbs seem to have my number. I even lost an elite archer on a mountain to a barb warrior. The barb horsemen are not hurting me either.

Reminds me of the old CivII announcements when someone was forst to get certain techs and it would say something about their culture. I wish I could remember those sayings. May have to dust of Test Of Time and play in classic mode.

Anyway with all the old wonders going to the AI, the score will be very ugly for most of the game. I dropped my second city on the coast and the AI got Collossus just about that time, nasty business.

I think Arrains 90% challenge and 10% fun maybe too generous.
The 10% fun seems to be divided up into 5% fun and 5% agony.
Anyway I decided to just made nothing but warriors until I got WC and could make archers. I put up a barracks in both cities and cranked out vets and dumb bunched them as soon as I saw them spread out and I made all the deals I could. I sent one stack of about 6 or 7 troops in one diorection and another batch in the other. They had 6 cities I saw in the first run. Three were autorazed and I captured one and two were under siege.
A little later 2 more autorazed and one settler/spear como caught.
Made peace for 4 techs and a few gold. Immediately violated it and ran down all the rest of their cities. I think it was about three. I only captured one more. I paid little attention, but I think the two captured were the original capitol and the new capitol.
No vassals, as I don;t use them and anyway I could see the culture of two other civs. I wanted to keep the deception alive.
I don't know why as I almost never make GPT deals. Still no need for othres to know what as done.
I got to get back to my Warlord for a bit, can't seem to let it go just yet. That and the next stage is going to be ugly and boring for quite awhile.

	04-11-2003 21:35									#55
	Got spare money?

Leave no survivors vmxa1!

Let the archaeologists wonder to which civ those remains belonged!

I particularly liked the part: "Made peace for 4 techs and a few gold. Immediately violated it and ran down all the rest of their cities."

I recognised my typical game in your description, cause I play deity only. Am I a masochist?

	04-11-2003 22:33									#56
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Yes you are. I just hate to have anyone on my land mass, regardless of size. I have had some fun, but the game is crashing on me several times, so I have not stuck to it. I get mad after a crash or reboot and play something else for awhile. I have had this issue forever, even after replacing many components in my PC.
Anyway I have snatched the island near the northern part and made peace. I dropped 4 gallies of Sam on the large island and just watch the attackers dies, while triggering my GA. 442 makes it hard on horsemen, archers spears attacking. I took a run at one city, but it had too many defenders. I was afraid the next round of attacks would kill all or most of my units, so I made peace for cash, tech, map and gpt. I let the auto move send them home. I am moving them on to a tiny island to see if I can extort some stuff. After that I have more gallies and troops to revist the peace (after my gpt ends) to see if I can now actually take some land.
I did finished Disciples II Servants Of the Dark during this time and half a dozen maps in Warlords IV campaign as well as a Moo2 game. If C3C comes today, I will probably put this on the back burner for whirl at it. I just got another taste of how much I do not like lots of islands, but I needed the reminder.