27-10-2003 00:13									#1
	What traits for Archipelago Deity? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was thinking of taking a few days off of Civ to play some of my others games and get a break before C3C. I wanted to fire up a game around Thurs or Friday to get in one last PTW.
This is going to be a Deity with 70 or 80% water and mostly islands. I would expect to be on an island by myself or one other civ. With that in mind, I wanted to get some ideas about traits for such a game. You see islands are something I have tended to avoid having in my games and I am not all that familiar with what works and what does not.

Expansion - No
Industry - never hurts, extra shields not as likely for a long time
Commercial - extra commerce can't hurt
Military - cheap barracks, not all that useful on captured cities
Scientific - good for cheap libs and universities, extra tech at adv of age is not a bad thing.
Religious - cheap temples and cath very useful at deity.

I am leaning towards Babylon right now with no Bowman, so no archer rushes. I do not want to trigger a GA before I even have a handful of cities. Anyone have a comment on how to proceed?

	27-10-2003 03:54									#2
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What about Germany?

	27-10-2003 04:00									#3
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vmxa1 I thought you weren't going to play any island games for quite a while after AU402? Anyway, I'd go with commercial trait for the start toward map making. Religious is good too, so perhaps Spain or India. It's up to you though.

	27-10-2003 04:53									#4
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vxma1, have your tried Scandy yet?

	27-10-2003 04:54									#5
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I KNEW you'd pop in here with that Theseus!

	27-10-2003 04:59									#6
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Yeah, well.... archipelago and all. I swear, Every game I play, even AU 210 which is PANGAEA, I miss my Berserks.

vxma1, you're a bit of a masochist sometimes... ENGLISH!!

	27-10-2003 05:02									#7
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Commercial is probably your best bet. Alphabet from the start is very important because you're that much closer to Map Making, and you've got some good 40-turn research options (Mathematics, Literature) in case you find yourself with a couple of neighbors.

Industrious is always good.

The next best choice is, I think, Militaristic. Never forget the oft-forgotten advantage of this trait: half-cost Harbors. These are obviously a great boon on any Archipelago map. Also, military campaigns will undoubtedly be short and intense with so little land mass, and so the increased chance of promotions should come in handy (and offer the only realistic shot a Great Leaders).

So, I would go with either France, Carthage or Rome. England is another fine option, because it puts you as close to Map Making as you can get right from the start.


Dominae

	27-10-2003 05:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill vmxa1 I thought you weren't going to play any island games for quite a while after AU402? Anyway, I'd go with commercial trait for the start toward map making. Religious is good too, so perhaps Spain or India. It's up to you though.

I will probably hate myself for it. I just figure to do something different, AU402 is starting to fade away.

	27-10-2003 06:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus vxma1, have your tried Scandy yet?

I had them once in either an AU game or some map I got of the web. The bad part was they were in the middle of the land mass.
Anyway I am not too sure I want to be sending 621 against Calv/Rifles. I have so little experience with them, I was not even sure of how to best use them. They crossed my mind as they would be great as early marines. I know they are so light on defense, they would need support, but with what?
I guess it comes down to what they will be facing

	27-10-2003 06:08									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit What about Germany?

I was sort of figuring Mil was not so useful in this map setting, but Dom makes a case for it.

	27-10-2003 06:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Commercial is probably your best bet. Alphabet from the start is very important because you're that much closer to Map Making, and you've got some good 40-turn research options (Mathematics, Literature) in case you find yourself with a couple of neighbors. Industrious is always good. The next best choice is, I think, Militaristic. Never forget the oft-forgotten advantage of this trait: half-cost Harbors. These are obviously a great boon on any Archipelago map. Also, military campaigns will undoubtedly be short and intense with so little land mass, and so the increased chance of promotions should come in handy (and offer the only realistic shot a Great Leaders). So, I would go with either France, Carthage or Rome. England is another fine option, because it puts you as close to Map Making as you can get right from the start. Dominae

Yeah, I had sort of liked the ones that have Alphabet to get to Map Making. France was one the list as well. I had Egypt and India in the mix. I had thought I would go with civs from the Original game and pass the PTW ones. I was sort of thinking that I would be forced to use Num Merc if I used Carth and get trapped into a GA not of my choosing.
So I had it down to France/Egypt/India/Babylon, now I am having to take another look. I knew some good reason had escaped my noticed.
My first thought had been Rome as I have not played them much latey. Then I thought, I will have to use Legions right away, especially if I have any neighbors.
I had over looked the harbours aspect and that is an excellant point. I was looking hard to get a Religious civ as I figured that I could really use cheap temples at this level. The cath part, is just a bonus, but those temples are so important.

	27-10-2003 08:20									#12
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v, try Scandy. Berserks are INSANELY GREAT. They make Immortals look like Tinker Toys (yeah, that's me saying that!).

	27-10-2003 09:13									#13
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I'm not a warmonger and I second Theseus. Berserkers are absolutely awesome. If you manage to build the lighthouse, you'll have 6.2.1 units with 4 moves on sea Nothing can beat that on an archi map.

Yet, I'm currently playing on an archi map (seemingly 80% water, cold wet, but I'm not sure) as France. I hadn't played as the French in a while, and they're pretty good in such layout. Commercial is a real plus, and industrious helps you dramatically on the start. Besides, the French have the two most expansive starting techs (alphabet and masonry), and you can trade them for domething good with your neighbours.

I normally prefer the Carthaginians over the French, but in high difficulty levels, the 30 shield cost for the Merc. is an hindrance. The fact that you'll get a golden age during your despotism is an hindrance as well.

If you can do without industrious, I'd say go India. This way, you have a powerful combination of traits, and you'll be able to carve some land at the time of chivalry, whatever your resources. It's a great help if you lack of Iron, and the golden age is perfectly timed

	27-10-2003 12:01									#14
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I like all the ideas, not sure which to try. I will see what else shows up in the next few days and then pull the trigger.
It has been a long while, since I tried India.
I know the Scandies UU is a gas, I still remember the shock when I first attacked with them.
I am already having fun, just reading the feedback.

	28-10-2003 04:20									#15
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Just remember to post the final results of your game (pics maybe?)

	28-10-2003 06:38									#16
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I will be starting in a few days, doing a campaign for Warlords IV first.

	28-10-2003 07:43									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus vxma1, you're a bit of a masochist sometimes... ENGLISH!!

I actually had that thought once, and played my only archipelago game to date as England (Regent). I wound up with one long, thin, meandering continent that had all but one or two civs on it. The Spanish and Aztecs (I think) each had an island to themselves. It was closer to pangaea than any of the continents maps I've generated. I started on one end, next to Japan, and when it was time to build Hoover's, had to go all the way across the former Japanese lands to find a city with a river.

Back on topic, I would think Commercial, because of the distance aspect with corruption, and probably Scientific, due to the relative isolation and slowed tech pace. Religious and Industrious might be good subs, though.

	28-10-2003 07:47									#18
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On an archi map I'd probably want militaristic for the cheap (ridiculously cheap) harbors. Then perhaps scientific or industrious? Depends on playstyle chosen -- I don't often play Deity but when I do it usually involves turtling for a couple of ages or more rarely an opportunistic attack relatively early. Cheap libraries and universities in a shield poor environment sound particularly enticing, but a "turtle and hoard cash for two ages" approach makes the relative cost of science improvements less compelling. All of this is offset by having to start without Alphabet -- ouch!

Tough call. You can always go random and just do your best with the hand dealt .

Catt

	28-10-2003 09:26									#19
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I completely forgot about the cheap harbors and airports of militaristic. That's making Rome, China and Germany look fairly appealling for such a set up.

	28-10-2003 12:56									#20
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The harbor aspect is very appealing. I think it will come down to what the UU's are for the final tip of the scales.

	28-10-2003 12:57									#21
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BTW Catt good to see you are back.

	28-10-2003 16:47									#22
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quote: BTW Catt good to see you are back.

It is indeed

-
Could you post your game (4000bc) vmxa1? I might join this one

	28-10-2003 19:21									#23
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Well, my advice is France.
The industrious/commercial combo will help you tremendously when your empire is spread out on your archipelago with many islands.
Then you get Alphabet (you MUST get the GLighthouse) and Masonry (Granary in your first 3 cities, since city nr. 2 will start asap on the Palace for the GLighthouse.
If you plan military conquests, wait until the MAges (you'll have a better overall view) and carry a lonesome Musketeer along. Us it in your last battle and you get your GA in Republic and in peace.
Enjoy your game and post the save (asap, maybe I will play it) and some results later.

	28-10-2003 20:31									#24
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Dom beat me to this one easily - I read you first post and immediately thought "don't forget the harbors! Play Rome!"

Grant you, I have ZERO experience on Deity. However, I do have experience playing Rome on an island map. They're solid. Mil gets you the cheapo barracks & harbors, plus a better shot at getting a leader for a Palace/FP rush. That's big. Comm gets you alphabet + a bit more cash, which you will probably need for unit upgrades and the like.

-Arrian

	28-10-2003 22:41									#25
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Well one big plus is Rome is an original civ and I wanted to use one of them.
Alva I will put it up tomorrow. I will make a pick and crank it out in the morning. I may have a slight delay in getting started, if I have not finished this campaign by them. I am getting sucked in and hating to leave it now.

	28-10-2003 22:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by alva Could you post your game (4000bc) vmxa1? I might join this one

I normally play with Dom/Conq and culture enabled, so if you want any others let me know.

	29-10-2003 03:09									#27
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i almost always want to play with one of the cultural traits, and for an archioplago i would preffer scientific(i find religious useful when you have lots of neighbors, and therefor wars, so switching govts and mantaining happiness is more important).
so, aside from scientific i would want commercial (keeping corruption down in far away cities on other islands).
this leaves greece and korea. personally, i would pick korea to avoid an early golden age.

	29-10-2003 03:58									#28
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Religious is as useful for cheap temples and cath. Those are very handy at Deity. Especially since you will surely not have mamy luxs nearby and will have to wait for harbors to use any from future islands you come up with (now Mil is useful here).

	29-10-2003 04:22									#29
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I do not think militaristic would be that useful. you really only need 1 harbor per island for trading. The 40 shields here or there do not seem that useful. Also, seeing as you will be on an island, you probably won't get into as many land wars, so the main bonus of militaristic is almost nullified.

I would still go with commercial and either religious or scientific. That leaves Spain, India, Korea and Greece. I would still go Korea (although india seems like a good choice too. i love the idea of elephants on galleys).

	29-10-2003 05:24									#30
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I'm with Theseus on this one. Vikings are far and away the most FUN civ to play on archipelago game. Not only do berzerkers kick *ss. but there's something about them that just feels right. Call it channeling the spirit of Ragnar, but I can't help but grunt, curse and drink when playing them.

Add into it a killer UU, marine attack capability and the half-price harbors of militaristic, and it just seems a fun way to say goodbye to PTW.

I must admit, tho, that zorop makes a good point: the idea of loading elephants onto a galley is pretty amusing.