27-10-2003 15:21									#1
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I have always disliked the combat numbers on war elephants. The 'no need for a resouce' advantage never quite cut it for me.

Whats your take on these changes:

1. The no resource requirement remains.

2. Cost factor increased from 70 to 80 shields (to reflect the higher maintenance and training requirements).

3. Hit point bonus of +1 (to reflect the sheer strength and ability to absorb punishment).


Your input would be appreciated!

Sincerely. Ision

	27-10-2003 15:25									#2
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If you believe that this would overpower the unit. Would a cost factor increase from 70 to 90 shields, offset this?

	27-10-2003 16:44									#3
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War Elephants also do not retreat when defending IIRC.

The resource thing is a factor that depends heavily on the map, both it's specific lands as its size, climate and land mass. If Iron is very rare, the War Elephant is a blessing.

	27-10-2003 17:19									#4
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70 shields for a knight level unit is already more than enough.

The AU mod, along with some other mods, improves the War Elephant by making it ignore the movement cost of forest and jungle (similar to the Keshik with mountains). That makes more sense, I think.

	27-10-2003 18:11									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The AU mod, along with some other mods, improves the War Elephant by making it ignore the movement cost of forest and jungle (similar to the Keshik with mountains). That makes more sense, I think.

Yes, but what is the reasoning behind this? That the elephants destroy all trees that are on its way?

Please, don't tell me this is just a game.

	27-10-2003 18:17									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph 70 shields for a knight level unit is already more than enough. The AU mod, along with some other mods, improves the War Elephant by making it ignore the movement cost of forest and jungle (similar to the Keshik with mountains). That makes more sense, I think.

This can make the war elephant very potent IMHO, because Jungles are always a plague when it comes to conquer another Civ.

Besides, the "no resource requirement" thing is good. This way, war elephants allow you to grab an empire in early medieval even if you were pruned during ancient times (and it allows you to rush the most powerful unit of the time even in remote, unconnected cities).

	27-10-2003 19:09									#7
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War Elephants seem underpowered to me. I recently played the Japanese and the Samurai are similar to War Elephants in that you don't need a resource to build them, horses, but you do need iron. Same cost as a Knight, I believe, +1 defense and they can retreat. Much better deal than the War Elephant.

	27-10-2003 19:38									#8
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War Elephants are fine as is. They are one of my favorite units in the game. They are so cool, the coolness makes up for any imagined short coming. The way I use them is to build walls in all my cities, build veteran War Elephants and some catapults only, no other units. Then, get your self in a defensive war; only fighting on your land. The combination of interior lines, walls, catapults and elephant retreat will preserve and promote many war elephants. Then when you start getting GL, make a few armies of War Elephants, and along with your elites, you are ready to stomp some heads and take some land!

	27-10-2003 20:03									#9
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If anything, I'd probably be inclined to make them 5/2/2 instead of 4/3/2, and leave everything else alone.

-Arrian

	27-10-2003 20:21									#10
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quote: Originally posted by nuther War Elephants are fine as is. They are one of my favorite units in the game. They are so cool, the coolness makes up for any imagined short coming. The way I use them is to build walls in all my cities, build veteran War Elephants and some catapults only, no other units. Then, get your self in a defensive war; only fighting on your land. The combination of interior lines, walls, catapults and elephant retreat will preserve and promote many war elephants. Then when you start getting GL, make a few armies of War Elephants, and along with your elites, you are ready to stomp some heads and take some land!

Meeting of medieval leaders:

Bismarck says: Phear zee mighty German Knights!
Tokugawa counters: They can take less hits than my Samurai, though. Also, they need horses while my Samurai don't.
Bismarck: Horses? How are they rare?
Mao: China Knight be call Lidel and be fastel than ozel's.
Abu Bakr: No way in hell! My Ansar Warriors are as fast as your Riders, and cheaper to train, albeit slightly weaker in defense.
Genghis Khan: When it comes to warfare in mountainous lands, nothing beats my Keshiks. They go over the highest mountains as fast as over flat land
Gandhi: Ummm... my War Elephants aren't stronger, faster, cheaper or go quicker over mountains... ummm... but in exchange they are so kool.

	27-10-2003 20:49									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ision If you believe that this would overpower the unit. Would a cost factor increase from 70 to 90 shields, offset this?

No. 90 is too much to pay. 70 is fine.

	28-10-2003 04:55									#12
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Wait for Conquests....

	28-10-2003 14:27									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Alex Yes, but what is the reasoning behind this? That the elephants destroy all trees that are on its way? Please, don't tell me this is just a game.

Actaully correct reson was great endurance and familiarity with those climates.

And I think it was just with Jungles, consdering that it was the way it was done in my MOD (and since it was a base for AU mod).

	28-10-2003 16:04									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Swissy Wait for Conquests....

How? ...

But on a bright note, this thread has encouraged me to start a new game as the Indians. Never played them before and so far I really suck as them, but it might pick up. I did get the Great Library which was nice since I'm on a desert pennisula hemmed in by Korea and China who are cranky today...

	28-10-2003 17:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by mimi How? ...

Besides new units, Conquests tweaks some of the old ones. The War Elephant maybe one of them...

{Swissy quickly hits "Submit Reply" as the black helicopters with Atari logos appear above his home...}

	28-10-2003 19:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If anything, I'd probably be inclined to make them 5/2/2 instead of 4/3/2, and leave everything else alone.

I like this idea. Elephants are meant to be shock troops, charging into the enemy to disrupt their formations. Thus the extra attack makes sense. On defense, they don't have the forward motion that adds so much to their attack, so the slight reduction makes sense, too.

But seeing as Swissy has alluded to a possible change in C3C, I guess I'll wait and see.