10-10-2000 09:58									#61
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Captain Nemo:

I think occupying Le Havre is for better than for worse. Attacking units can be paradropped back to the main battlefiled in part 1 once the city is occupied. Besides, since I'm not suppose to take Caen until part 4, use the heavy artillaries to another area will not cause severe problems in offense. Le Havre gives a free wall in every city, so I can sell walls to get cash. There is a chance that I'll be able to keep the airbase in Le Havre AFB so I can airlift units back and force. The gliders will be able to capture German cities near Le Havre after I have defeated the few German Armors (use air forces to kill the defending units inside cities). One bad thing: Several German airplanes attacked the first city I used gliders to occupy and got killed, thus I could not get bonus for killing them with my airforce.

At the beginning I set tax 100%, and hired all but 3 citizens as taxmen. No happiness problem. The two cities producing infantry units were changed to capitalization. For the air force I also set tax 100%, and sold MP post and two of the cathedrals. I hired all citizens as taxmen in two cities, but the other two with high shield production I only hired two taxmen.

My planes wiped out all shore mines in turns 2 and 3, no losses to shore mine at all. I lost some ships to shells, not because I did not disarm the coastal batteries, but because that some of the shells moved to cities before I attack.

I figured out a way to switch units from different transports. Very handy. Two ships carrying 3 rangers/commandos and a combat engineer can kill a battery easily without any loss.

	10-10-2000 15:06									#62
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BTW, in readme you were worried about possibility of bribing German units, and I've noted myself (well, anyone over 5 years old probably notes) that it's easy to circumvent the "no fortify" for tanks via city screen, but didn't Harlan Thompson use some kind of trick to disallow city bribing in Mongols? Could it this be used in this scenario, too?

	10-10-2000 19:51									#63
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Cal:
Expecting to and being able to are very different... Stalin expected the Red Army to carry the war into Poland and Germany in June 1941... try that in Red Front!
I think it was impossible for the British to seize Caen given the strength of the defense there and I think the scenario should reflect that. I thought it did but some of you scenario players out there are better than I expected.
I see both types of complaints (Too difficult, too easy) In the long run I think it will not be too easy and early successes beyond the historical achievements will not result in a collapse of the German defenses. Caen however was the "Focus" of all the fighting on the British side for the first month and taking it on D-Day would make all the related events in parts 2-5 obsolete...

	10-10-2000 20:20									#64
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Is the game seriously ruined if one does not play at deity? I have not tried SF yet (have not tried RF yet either). I recently 'discovered' that there are some great scenarios out there. I played some of them on "prince" level, since that is how I played CIV2. If I does this do I ruin the scenario for myself?

	10-10-2000 23:22									#65
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I would try to play it at the designed level - deity has two major impacts on a game: Happiness and Production. The Allies have very few large cities to keep content and they all start out fine. On the production side most of the German units are already on the map, so the AI's rapid building of units is not that great of a factor.

If you play it several times and can't seem to get very far even with reading some of the strategies that others are using - then perhaps you could edit the rules.txt files to suit your level of play. If you have never changed anything in a rules.txt you might want to practice on a scenario that you don't care about before Second Front to make sure you know what you are doing. Some things that might make this one easier would be just in changing some of the German unit flags - taking out alpine movement, ignore city walls, or reducing unit attack and defense strength.

I would encourage you to read strategies on and practice the original scenario numerous times before you change things though. It is meant to be difficult and even if it takes twenty tries and two years for you to get through it, I am sure you will appreciate it more.


Nemo - those damn FW 190Ds!! I caught one up north on the first or second turn and took in into the red with a Spitfire - that made me mad so I allocated another one to attack it and it got wiped out too! Arghh.

	11-10-2000 00:15									#66
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Nemo, the problem isnt that Caen isnt supposed to be take too early but the problem that in part 2's game.txt it says:

"The city of Caen is a very important strategic target as it controls the road to the open countryside and to Paris. "Monty" had promised to take the city on D-Day and it should be captured as quickly as possible."

Its not very nice to make a lot of effort to take this city just to realize its not supposed to be done.

Atleast i have found this scenario bit easy. Atleast in my game AI havent been able to make any serious counteroffensives.

	11-10-2000 01:46									#67
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This scenario is incredibly difficult -- just like Red Front was the first times I played that.

Still, the amount of time and overall quality of the scenario is second to none.

I had my doubts, but Second Front is a true success. Absolutely fantastic. Thank you, Captain Nemo.

	11-10-2000 02:03									#68
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Sorry, double post.
[This message has been edited by Chris Kirchgasler (edited October 10, 2000).]

	11-10-2000 02:23									#69
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Of course I wanted the human player to throw all the British units at Caen, as Monty did, and suffer huge casualties, as he did... You weren't supposed to take the City!

The text is perfectly historical: Several operations (Epsom being one) and a major air bombardment were expended on Caen. Monty promised several times to take it and failed. Even the famous "Wittmann engagement" at Villers-Bocage was part of the action as it took place when the British 7th armored division tried to sweep around the West side of the city and attack it from the South but ran into the Tigers of the LSAH 1st SS-Panzerdivision on the way.

I had provisions and a reward in the events for the British taking the city before July 9...but not THAT long before. It took me a massive effort to dislodge the Germans around July 7 or 8 and expected others to perform about the same...

This scenario is very "touchy" from a historical standpoint as it relies on a series of historical events unfolding close to the real timeline (Similar to Spartacus) and can get thrown off track if you divert too far from it.

It was a difficult choice but I decided for the more historical path which could teach players a few things about the Battle for Normandy.

	11-10-2000 10:24									#70
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Xin Yu finally find a good D-Day strategy!

Use your air force to clear the shore mines, then move the assault crafts towards the beach. Make sure that either the crafts are empty or only infantries are on the crafts. Use 8 such crafts to form a circle, then put your LSTs and other ships in the center. This whole group will land on the beach without being hit by shells!

Here's how it works. Missile units attack in a particuler way: it 'paradrop's to a square adjacent to its target, then attack. If there is no available adjacent square for it to paradrop, it cannot attack. Because your small assault crafts are not targets unless you put armors (expensive units) on them, you can use them to protect your 'target' ships by forming a circle around them.

nananananananana... I'm happy!

	11-10-2000 11:05									#71
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Hmm... that should work well, as long as you make sure you get all the beach mines so they can't open up a hole.

Do you have any tips on how to make the luftwaffe stop counter-attacking captured cities so the RAF and USAAF can get the plane bonus for destroying them?

------------------
The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	11-10-2000 22:07									#72
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Great strategy Xin... I used the same idea later in the game (You can figure when)

The German planes close to the beaches usually kill themselves on counterattacks or kill Allied units outside cities and then remain there for the Airforce to pick off on the following turn.

The other Luftwaffe planes (In remote airfields) just patrol the nearby areas so they can be targets for your fighters. I usually send one group or fighters (3-5) straight West from Poole AFB to look for ME109s/Fw190s west of Cherbourg (Where one Luftwaffe base is located) and another group East from Hawkinge to look around the Yvetot airbase in the North East corner of the map.

Due to a stupid Civ2 quirk, terrain matters in air-to-air combat. I'll bet that Fw190 mentionned earlier was flying over hedgerow terrain, and therefore almost impossible to kill.

	11-10-2000 22:27									#73
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Play at deity:

This scenario does not have any research or economic development, so it is not affected a lot by play level. The AI can't cheat as much as he usually does because the areas he cheats in are omitted, so I don't think anyone needs to worry about playing this on Deity.

Disorder:

Disorder in British cities is unavoidable at times... It only cuts off the unit production in those cities (The city still supports all units in the field) while it lasts and city based unit production is probably only 20% of the overall reinforcements. I let it happen unless I can just switch a few low production squares to "nurses" and eliminate it.

Supporting units in France:

My strategy is that all infantry should immediately be assigned to the city where it lands or the nearest city that has available "Ammo" (Shields). Armor and vehicles should be assigned to a few "Fuel depot" cities where I direct all my fuel trucks. Here I pick cites size 8 or greater (Bayeux, Carentan, Arromanches, Port-en-Bessin, Isigny, Caen, Valognes, StLo etc...) that can support 20 or more units. When Cherbourg is captured it is a great "tank support city" for a while but requires your transports to make a detour Northwest to unload the troops.

Switching production:

Contrary to Xin I don't switch production in any British cities because soon there will be more than enough cities in France to produce Capitalization. I agree the Infantry is of limited value except when trying to hold a whole bunch of cities on a wide front against German infiltration while grouping all the Armor/Motorized units in attack groups needed to break through the German defense lime.

	11-10-2000 22:40									#74
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Part II is not more difficult than part I!
The units are tougher in part II, including some really nasty ones but you should have an established beachhead by then so you can take a defensive posture and let the Germans kill themselves against your fortified villages.
On the Western end of the theater (American sector) there are less tough German units and it should be possible to advance inland towards the West coast of the Cotentin peninsula, especially if you have a number of M7 105mm sp howitzers and M3 Armored infantry carriers left... these are the most effective in clearing out the villages.
The biggest challenge in that area will probably be the 3rd German Parachute Division that tends to infiltrate the Allied player's territory using the hedgerow terrain. The M7s will dispatch them if they are adjacent to a road.

	12-10-2000 00:26									#75
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Regarding to pillaging of roads and blocking reinforcements:

Although Xin Yu has found a better use for the gliders and commandos (I will remove that "loophole" in my first revision) my intended use was exactly that: to block reinforcements from the East. My tactic has been to bring them inside the hedgerows where the German armor can't hit them from the roads and fortify them. A lot of German units surround them but don't attack them, diverting major reinforcements away from the British beaches. Occasionally advancing to the edge of the hedgerows and killing a German tank or Halftrack on a "Grass" or "Marecages" square even makes them more useful. Pillaging the roads didn't seem necessary.

I tried Xin Yu's tactic with the gliders... Langrunes is not where Xin meant. The gliders are wasted by an immediate violent counter-attack with shells, infantry and light tanks. No, Xin is paradropping into Trouville almost straight east of the glider starting location where a lone Wehrmacht sentry is holding the city. The city is taken with almost no losses and the gliders are safe.

I overlooked this location as all other cities within paradrop range are protected by bunkers. Good work Xin!

	12-10-2000 03:31									#77
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Captain Nemo: Trouville and Honfleur are both within paradrop range and weakly defended. However Trouville is closer to where you can land so it is better.

I'll restart without using the gliders. This time I'll

a) use the 'fleet' trick to land my troops to the shore;
b) use combat engineers to disarm the batteries;
c) use rangers/commandos to infiltrate (i.e., bypass cities) to the hedgerow terrain and fortify them;
d) land other troops and occupy fortresses;
e) finally, throw artilleries to target cities via roads.

	12-10-2000 06:40									#78
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I was able to capture Carentan on D-Day. Does this mean that I can't get the Utah-Omahah link up tech in part 2?

------------------
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith
[This message has been edited by Case (edited October 11, 2000).]

	12-10-2000 18:10									#79
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Case:
I tried to cover all the cities that could be captured on D-Day with the D-Day events. Carentan is defended by a Command Post that should be virtually impossible to kill until part 2... How did you do it?
The limited size of the event files only let me put so much in each part. A few city captures span multiple parts: Bayeux is in both part 1 & 2... Carentan is in Part 2 & 3... Caen in 4, 5 & 6 etc.
Do not worry too much: If you get too far ahead of schedule and miss technologies like the Omaha-Utah link-up what should happen is a partial reduction in reinforcements for the 2-3 next parts, which should slow down your offensive and force you to get back in synch with the scenario masterplan... theoretically!

Xin:
Sounds like an excellent plan! I will add a historical timetable in the Readme for those who want to stay faithful to history or want to make sure they don't perform "Too Well".

All:
I am interested in hearing how such a "historically inflexible" scenario rates. I spent a LOT of time reading up on this campaign and there are 100s of events in scenario that are direct historical tie-ins... Is it worth it or would an open slugfest with a historical starting point be more fun?

	12-10-2000 22:14									#80
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Due to time constraints, I'm slowly working my way through turn 2 of the game at about 1 or 2 turns a night, usually when my wife is occupied by the Lifetime Movie Network.

The only comment so far, is that having all of the units appear in the help menu would be a plus. That way the player has some idea of what the strengths of his units are and what is he is going up against. If this was intentionally worked into the game as part of some fog of war, then having combat engineers being built in a city in England or appearing via events like commandoes is a must. I've wiped out almost all of my engineers attacking bunkers which have a combat strength greater than 0.

	12-10-2000 22:27									#81
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So when do we get RedFront 1.941?

	12-10-2000 23:06									#82
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Jim:
Combat engineers will appear later in the game (Part 3?)
How would you have units appear in the Civilopedia without risking that the AI disbands them? I think an "impossible"/"not yet achieved" tech prerequisite does cause the AI to disband those units in favor of units that can be built... I had the problem in the American Civil War scenario until I used no, nil.
I know what you mean about Lifetime... funny.

Darthveda:
If I started today it would take me at least 3 months... There is a tremendious amount of work to be done.

Others:
Here are my choices for my next project, if I decide to do it (Sorry, no garantees, I'm somewhat burned out after this massive effort). Please vote!!

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 0
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 0
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
France 1940 (German side): 0
Afrikakorps (British or German?): 0
Battle of Britain (British side): 0

I will only consider a WWII era scenario, forget ancient Persia, Greece or the Roman empire (There are people more competent than me in that area)

Please respond by copying the paragraph above and add your vote to the tally!

	13-10-2000 00:48									#84
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Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare)

My first choice. Since there has yet to be a similar scenario, a ground breaking design effort requires your level of expertise. I only worry that because of the significant graphic changes that would be needed, it will require a lot of your time. At least with RF1.941 most of that work is done.

	13-10-2000 02:35									#85
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Nemo, what about that "Battle of the Bulge" scenario from the Germans side someone suggested a while ago?

------------------
The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	13-10-2000 02:48									#86
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Any scenario playable from the Axis side. Just add my vote to the Axis scenario that gets the most votes.

------------------
"There is no more illustrious history than the history of the Magyar Nation... The whole civilized world is indebted to Magyarland for its historic deeds."
-Theodore Roosevelt, to the Hungarian Parliament,
April 2, 1910

	13-10-2000 03:09									#87
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Yes, two huge WW2 scenarios from Captain Nemo about just a part of the conflict, and both have been from one of the Allies point of view. I think an Axis view of the war as told through the medium of a civ2 scenario with the word "Front" in the title is in order.

On the other hand though... I really want to see this new map for Red Front, with the changes, it could turn out to be even better than Red Front 1.4

How many more civ2 scenarios on these subjects do you plan to do in your lifetime, Captain Nemo?

------------------
The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	13-10-2000 10:11									#88
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Stalingrad: 1942!

This is another oppertunity for you, Captain Nemo, to totally revolutionize the world of the scenario. I would like to see one 'big boy' scenario playable as the Axis, namely Germany. "War on Two Fronts: '44-'45 could work too. Try to stem the waves of Soviet, American and British armies. A try to hold on situation with the Reich crumbling in fron of your eyes.
But again, I must vote for Stalingrad. So many reasons:
Mamayev Hill,
Pavlov's house- More German casualties taking this house than in taking Paris.
Red October, Barricades and Tractor Plants
Gorokhov, Ludnikov and Zukov Bridgeheads
Indusrial, Central and Suburban areas of the city
The Soviet resupply across the Volga
The Soviet artillery across the Volga, you could have them simmilar to the costal batteries in SF, but have them be a seperate Civ so as to prevent sending shells into "cities" across the Volga. Make the Artillery Civ's cities look like Cannons and Katushas and only give them the tech for building rockets and shells.

I would want to play as the Germans, against a heavily defensive AI. Basically throw waves of troops to try to break and devide the city.
Since it has been said that in Stalingrad, the kilometer was replaced by the meter as a unit of measure (or something like that) ZOC could play a major part in this.

So many areas for inovation, but a hard and long journey for a scenario author. Good luck!

Stalingrad: 1942!

	13-10-2000 10:19									#89
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which side would be playable in the stalingrad scenario?