13-10-2000 11:55									#91
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FINNISH-SOVIET WAR!

	13-10-2000 13:44									#92
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...y'know, this should probably have it's own topic.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	13-10-2000 13:45									#93
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RF 1.941, but Stalingrad would be a great too.

	13-10-2000 14:07									#94
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Hmm... I seem to be the only one against a Stalingrad scenario. Stalingrad is a huge city, how could you show house to house fighting accurately, have a city for each house? How would you even decide what to name each house? It's very difficult to depict an actual fight in civ2... I think it would look unrealistic.

I'm saving my vote for awhile until Nemo gets the chance to answer all these questions.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	13-10-2000 18:53									#95
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Just to summarize how I tally the above: I saw a couple of double votes RF + Stalingrad.

Red Front 1.941 (New map): 2
Stalingrad 1942 (Urban warfare): 2
Finnish-Soviet War (Finnish side): 1
Ardennes 1944 (American side): 0
Ardennes 1944 (German side): 1
France 1940 (German side): 0
Afrikakorps (British or German?): 0
Battle of Britain (British side): 0

I will start a new topic on this subject as this tread takes too long to load and many won't find hidden inside the SF topic.

Here are a few clarifications:

-Red Front, the map is made, 10% bigger than the original and much better proportionned. Harlan made it and assigned city populations, resources, industrial areas etc... from actual 1941 figures. Historically the map is 100% better than the original. Some terrain is changed as hills have been reintroduced and there is a new "mineral" terrain representing the rich Ural region metal, chemical and coal deposits. Bereza and oilfields are lost as separate terrain types. The tech tree will be beefed up and there will be more variety in units through the years of the war.

-Stalingrad: house to house fighting... yes each block would be a city but with no name and a hidden size. Again separate Civs for airforces but here I can let them be AI controlled since their role was not as critical as in Normandy (Hope to avoid the hotseat mode). Mostly infantry units to avoid the unrealistic aspect of having dozen of tanks inside one house. The scenario would cover the battle for the city of Stalingrad, not the broader campaign with the encirclement etc... I haven't chosen sides yet.
Soviets would be more interesting IMHO as they have the Volga bridges/resupply barges... This even has the potential of being a two sides scenario as the historical details of the actual battle are less known.
Special units: snipers, mortars, machine gun nests, a lot of different infantry types, light artillery.

-Battle of Britain:
Have a lot of good ideas here too. Human control of the RAF and Air defense network (Radar stations and Ack-ack guns). British population and industry represented by an AI producing no military units, just civilians, factories, trade trucks, cargo ships etc...
Human player owns just a handful of factories producing the airplanes and AA guns + fixed airbases (These are units with air carrying capability) across the UK. The Luftwaffe can destroy the airbases reducing the operating ranges of the RAF fighters as well as bomb the aircraft factories. AA guns can be placed in defensive lines to protect the British cities but can't be inside the cities since they are AI controlled.
Luftwaffe scores extra units/money for destroying factories, killing civilians, sinking ships and destroying airbases. If critical mass is reached (ie massive Luftwaffe superiority) an event triggers the release of 100 transport ships with German infantry from French channel ports...

As you can see I thought most about these 3.

This scenario building hobby of mine will end when CivIIs popularity falls off...release of Civ3?

	13-10-2000 18:59									#96
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my votes on RF 1941

but for the ardennes, if you ever do that, you could have the player be both sides. Play as the Germans to their high tide, then take over as the Americans.

	14-10-2000 07:55									#98
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Thanks Case, I need to correct such mistakes in the next version.

I would like to know how far anyone has gotten as far as timeframe. Has anyone encountered Wittmann yet? Has anyone had to deal with SS-Panthers and Tigers divisions?
Has anyone cut off the road to Cherbourg by reaching the Atlantic?

If anyone has a good screenshot of their game in progress could you E-mail it to me? I want to add the best screenshots of Second Front to another thread to show how the game progresses.

	14-10-2000 08:16									#99
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Of course I played as the Soviets.

I found the scenario very detailed and pushed the Germans back losing only Stalingrad. I pulled all my forces back and let Stalingrad fall. I then regrouped and heavily fortified the remaining cities while I brought in reinforcements from the east. The Germans then wasted their units attacking my heavily defended cities while trying to defend Stalingrad. Within the next 15 turns I had retaken Stalingrad and pushed to Berlin since the Germans had frittered away all their army in the offensive.

As for your next scenario. I'm thinking kinda WWII-ish.

The October Revolution. Amid WWII, the Czarist Whites fighting the Bolshevik Reds. Spread this out across the map from the Mongol scenario by MicroProse and it'd be really cool. Events could include British and American reinforcements and the Czech Legion. Plus lots more.

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-Sibir Khan
Pronounced "Cyber" Khan
Proud to be an Arab-American

	14-10-2000 10:05									#100
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I've made it to Cherbourg. To do this, though, I pulled back many of my forces simultaneously advancing towards St. Lo and the coast in the process. Now the Germans have pushed me back in the South, and though the peninsula is crumbling easily, Cherbourg stands immovable.

I'm wondering, if I don't reach Lessay, is Cherbourg impossible to take? I've been bombing it for six or seven turns now, and there seems to be no decrease in the amount of infantry in the city; in fact, it seems limitless.

I know you're prone to some strange programming events, Nemo, but if this is your idea of "challenge," then you've really outdone yourself this time. Here I am, scraping tooth and nail through monster of a scenario, just barely keeping up with your increasingly difficult goals -- now I've got to move on Cherbourg, St. Lo and the coast at once, and in the "proper" order? Oh me, oh my . . .

Yes, I've taken out Wittmann (twice), and I'm holding Villers Bocage and the Caen airfield. I'm about to mount my assault once my latest shipment of engineers arrive.

Life (and war) is hell in your world, Nemo. Still, I love the challenge.

Thanks.
[This message has been edited by Chris Kirchgasler (edited October 14, 2000).]

	15-10-2000 13:42									#101
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I won't bore anyone with how well I'm doing, I've been slower than most to get going. However I have one question for Nemo- you had a spare civ, and didn't use it. Why didn't you make the batteries belong to that one civ, give them a city in deep Frnace, and stop the shells moving into cities?

	15-10-2000 16:12									#102
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Great idea... I did... It's the Kriegsmarine Civ!

	15-10-2000 18:29									#103
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I mean exclusively batteries- the Kriegsmarine have several nearby cities to move the shells into. This can really screw up careful battery avoidance.

	15-10-2000 23:57									#104
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They actually only have one nearby city (Lion s/Mer)and of course the regular Germans also control some of the batteries and shells so the problem can't be totally averted.
Beside the advantage of keeping the shells in the batteries I have also forced some of the German beach defense forces to "stay" on the beaches by isolating them with a line of immobile "Widerstandnest" units of the opposite Civ right behind them. This isn't really apparent when you play the Allied side but the AI was very reluctant to leave units near the invasion areas, to the point of deserting Pointe du Hoc completely on the first turn, making it much too easy for the Allies to land.

	16-10-2000 00:09									#105
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Captain Nemo: I restarted again... and I bought a book on Operation Overlord to help me make every action follow the historical path. I have one question though, it says we're supposed to drive all the way to the coast to cut off cherbourg in part 2, but are we also supposed to take Villers-Bocage in part 2?

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	16-10-2000 03:38									#106
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Nemo, could you put out a list of when cities should fall? In part 2 I followed my orders to cut of Cherbourg and after a massive (and very expencive) struggle captured Carteret and Barneville in the very last turn of part 2. However, It seems I missed out on the "Cherbourg Isolated" tech as the part 3 instructions indentify these cites as the objective

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If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error
-John Kenneth Galbraith

	16-10-2000 04:22									#107
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Yes... a list would really help, I've captured both Le-Haye-du-Puit and Coutainville, but I have this nagging feeling that I might be doing too well for the game. Very unlike Red Front.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	16-10-2000 07:46									#108
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I will include a list of historical objectives and dates in the readme for the revised version. Also I will try to make it even more difficult to get ahead of schedule... BTW there is nothing wrong with not getting the objectives on time or getting them too early, that's part of the game! Just need to collect all the feedback first. I will also add a quick rundown on those dates here tomorrow.

Cutting off Cherbourg is the objective "to drive towards" in part 2 but should only be achievable in part 3 or 4

Villers-Bocage is a minor objective that was taken as a part of the encirclement attempt around Caen... Doesn't affect the scenario a lot.

Here are a few:

Part 1:
-5 beaches
-Pointe du Hoc
-Arromanches (Mulberry)
-Port-en-Bessin (US-UK link)
-Colleville draw

Part 1 or 2:
-Bayeux

Part 2 or 3:
-Carentan (Omaha-Utah link-up)
-Villers-Bocage

Part 3 or 4:
-Portbail
-Carteret
-Carpiquet Airfield

Part 5:
-Cherbourg
-Cherbourg AFB
-Carpiquet Airfield

Part 6:
-Caen

Part 7:
-St Lo

Part 8:
-Bernay

Part 9:
-Coutances
-Avranches
-Pontaubault Airfield

Part 10 or 11:
-Mortain
-Domfront
-Argentan
-Falaise
+ All the other German cities!
[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited October 15, 2000).]

	16-10-2000 09:42									#109
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Oh... I took VIllers-Bocage in Part 2 and saw no events pop up to the effect of "Monty captures Villers-Bocage in an attempt to encircle Caen" so I thought I did it too early...

Hmm... I think... I shall have to start over for a 4th time now.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	16-10-2000 22:38									#111
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Is it legal to rush build Mulburries?

	17-10-2000 05:47									#112
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OK here is my revised objective list

Part 1:
-5 beaches
-Pointe du Hoc
-Arromanches (Mulberry)
-Port-en-Bessin (US-UK link)
-Colleville draw
-Bayeux

Part 2:
-Bayeux
-Carentan (Omaha-Utah link-up)

Part 3:
-Carentan (Omaha-Utah link-up)
-Villers-Bocage
-Portbail
-Carteret

Part 4:
-Caen
-Villers-Bocage
-Portbail
-Carteret
-Carpiquet Airfield

Part 5:
-Caen
-Portbail
-Carteret
-Carpiquet Airfield
-Cherbourg
-Fontenay

Part 6:
-Caen
-Carpiquet Airfield
-Cherbourg
-Cherbourg AFB

Part 7:
-Caen
-Cherbourg
-Cherbourg AFB
-St Lo

Part 8:
-Bernay
-St Lo
-Coutances

Part 9:
-Coutances
-Avranches
-Pontaubault Airfield

Part 10:
-Avranches
-Pontaubault Airfield
-Mortain
-Domfront
-Argentan

Part 11:
-Mortain
-Domfront
-Argentan
-Falaise
+ All the other German cities!

Evil Capitalist: No issue with speed building the Mulberry wonder.

Xin Yu: I'll let you figure out how to minimize the impact of V-1 attacks on England... It's not an immediate disaster just a long term drain on your forces.

Cal: Villers-Bocage is not a critical objective, don't start over.

To all: The game can be won without getting all the objectives in the exact order/parts listed above. The impact of not getting a specific objective is not getting one of the advantages that come with it. Some are more valuable than others... Of course not getting any at all will result in a total collapse of your campaign.

	17-10-2000 06:21									#113
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Captain Nemo: Err... too late for that, already did, but I'm doing well, now. The trick is to not lose any planes and to destroy as many luftwaffe planes as possible, then you'll never be caught unable to make an airstrike.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited October 16, 2000).]

	17-10-2000 08:03									#114
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Man that first day killed me. I had about 6 german cities about halfway through D-Day and towards the last few hours the germans just took city after city of mine. At the end of the first day i had 1 british city and 2 american cities in France. Then by the time my Reinforcements arrived, i only had the 2 american cities left in france. So hopefully my reinforcements will push back the germans. But i lost all of my Airforce cause well i didn't bring them back to their bases...i'm sure there are some Airbases in france? that i could land in or something....anyways GREAT SCN!

	17-10-2000 09:36									#115
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SunTzu: You are in trouble!
There will be Airbases in France but only once you have taken them from the Luftwaffe.
How many planes do you have left... There are very few Air Force reinforcements until part 6-7 and without an Air Force your ground troops will get overrun by the German Panzers!
How many key objectives did you hold at the height of D-Day? (Look at the technology screen, you get new technologies when you take one of the objectives)
With less than 5 your odds would be terrible to reverse the D-Day disaster.

	17-10-2000 09:42									#116
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The trick to outsmarting the V-1's... seems to be withdrawing all useful units from the cities they're attacking, and leave only infantry in them. That's what I did, anyway.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	17-10-2000 23:39									#117
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Yeah SunTzu! Now I don't feel so bad!

I've almost stopped playing this beautiful scenario because of the stalemate I always end up with. I can take 5-8 objectives in the first part, but only be mercilessly pushing forward and loosing many units. Then, my firstwaves of reinforcements must be used to hold these cities, rather than to expand the footholds.
I find that my airforces are desimated early, and generally will loose to units on decent defensive terrain. The airforce doesn't seem to be as decisive as it should be. Well, but others are doing well with it. Hmmm, I am really having a difficult time with this one. Way more than RF. And because of the everpresent stalemate I always loose interest by part 2. I can't believe I just said that! I waited for so long for this to come out, and I've lost interest... I think I need me head checked!
Anyway, keep up those strats in the AoW forum, I'm gonna need 'em.
Thanks

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!
Großdeutschland!

	18-10-2000 04:59									#118
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I have no planes left!! they were taken out in my first 5 turns! i do have 15planes(bombers) but it won't let me use them. I have landed my reinforcements about 25units. with 30more coming. I have Bayeux and Pont-en-bassin that's all i have left. Here's what i did. At the beggining i took my paratroopers up towards the beaches to clear out the german infantry, and i took half of the Airborne and staled the Fallschmirgher. So since my airborne kept the fallschmirgher busy they didn't arrive to the beach till d-day was over.
Nemo: I had 6 cities at the height of my invasion. I've destroyed the 352nd German Infantry but the german panzers who completely wiped out the british army to the east of the american beachs, are coming towards my last 2 cities with the fallschmirghers on the outskirts of pont-en-bassin.
I'm gonna keep on playing and see if i can do a counterattack that i thought of. i only have 8 units in france atm
Wish me luck!

	18-10-2000 05:44									#119
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Well I am sorry to hear Second Front beat you Field Marshal... I thought that the higher degree of challenge would actually increase the satisfaction when you beat it? I certainly felt vindicated several times when I made brilliant strategic moves and outmaneuvered that nasty AI!

The keys:
To win the air battle, choose targets you CAN take out, not targets you WOULD LIKE to take out! NEVER accept to lose a plane... You will lose enough due to errors don't lose any on purpose.
USE the planes as "blockers" to isolate cities you want to take so the Germans can't reinforce them.

To defend against V-1s, since you cannot avoid getting your NEW units hit (They are built in the beginning of the turn) you can block access to the city (Brighton is the V-1s main target) with 8 fighters and defend it with 3-4 M3 w/AA guns when your planes have to land every 4 turns.
This is only worthwhile after you have fully capitalized on hunting down the German planes in part 1 and 2.