28-10-2003 03:26									#1
	Can you sue a software company? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I have to admit I have only read a few of the countless disclaimers that came with software products I use.

Those that I have read were worded in a way that made it pretty clear that once you bought the software the company that sold it accepts no responsability for anything whatsoever that may happen with you, with the software or with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for that matter.

What I am asking you, is this really the way it works? Once you click "I agree", are software companies clear of all responsability with regards to their product?

If for example, I suffer a damage as a consequence of my software malfunctioning, can I sue the producer for compensation?

If not, why? If a car engine blows up on you all of itself, you know who to blame.

I may be oversimplifying things but I know squat about legal system so your input is greatly appreciated

	28-10-2003 03:32									#2
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But do you sign a disclaimer with a car?

I think your third paragraph sums up the situation, unfortuneatly

	28-10-2003 03:36									#3
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Well I know that there are some rights a man can not give up. You can't sign yourself into slavery for example.

I would be very surprised if "Total Disclaimers" hold in court, but I don't know..

Why not sign them for everything you ever buy then?

	28-10-2003 03:38									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

There's two ideas, IMO, to look at it:

(1) You can assume responsibility but also gain the right to reverse-engineer it (not necessarily publish or spread your results but still reverse-engineer it) and not be bound by its license.

(2) The company assumes full responsibility and keeps its strangling license.

	28-10-2003 03:45									#5
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Well it is confusing you have to admit.

Obviousely there is a market for software that would come with guarantees. Why don't companies step in and earn money on this?

Also what happens if a big company or a bank that spent a fortune on software loses money because of a bug in it? Who pays the damages?

	28-10-2003 03:45									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Well I know that there are some rights a man can not give up. You can't sign yourself into slavery for example.

Thats a good point, but in the UK there is a saying (and I'm not sure if its law) 'Sold as Seen' meaning its incumbent on the buyer to take responsiblity for checking the goods out prior to use/purchase, maybe that has some application in this?

edit: typo

	28-10-2003 03:49									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just look at what car companies do, they spend money all the time getting cars back into factories for fixes. This would be analoguos to patching I guess

Otherwise they risk law suits. Why it ain't so with software companies? Or is it?

	28-10-2003 03:51									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think the key is proving that the software MALFUNCTIONED... no amount of coverage can protect a company from performing in a manner in which it was not intended.

Example: Bungee-jumping. You sign a waver that says they are not held responsible for any personal injury... This really covers them from whiplash, neck injuries, bruises, heart attacks the like... Yet if the cord breaks and you crack your dome you can so to your hearts content.

Example: When I was growing up a buddy of mine had a halfpipe in his backyard for skateboarding. His parents were rich and before we could "play" on it we were made to sign a waver. One day a buddy of mine was sitting on a bench and it broke in two, no idea why. Their parents were scared he would sue because despite the waver, a bench is not suppose to break it but a two inch sliver in your butt He wouldn't sue, but it sure was funny.

By cliking "agree" you agreed to the terms of the liscensing agreement. They cannot put a disclaimer in there that will say "if your computer catches on fire because of this software it's not our fault."

	28-10-2003 03:57									#9
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I don't think it is impossible to prove that software malfunctioned, sometimes it is quite obvious (logs, memory dumps..) and sometimes bugs can be recreated.

So what you are saying Japher is that if you can prove it, manufacturer is liable?

	28-10-2003 04:01									#10
	Got spare money?

That's what I am saying. Not sure if it's fail safe, but it would give you a case. And, if it's good enough proof they may just give you some "shut-up" money...

quote: Thats a good point, but in the UK there is a saying (and I'm not sure if its law) 'Sold as Seen' meaning its incumbent on the buyer to take responsiblity for checking the goods out prior to use/purchase, maybe that has some application in this?

Not if you can't check it out without purchasing or agreeing to it's liscense. Buying something "as is" ussually gives the buyer the ability to assess if they want it... There are consumer laws.

I would check what you agreed to, find the malfunction and consult with an attorney.

	28-10-2003 08:30									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't think the disclaimer has any effect other than to try to scare potential plaintiffs away.

The contract was entered into at the store when you bought the product. The software company can't then demand you agree to additional terms if you want to use their product. It's just a bluff.

	28-10-2003 08:59									#12
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You're in Croatia, right? You'd have to check with a lawyer there. In the USA it goes state by state, in some states you can not agree to release the seller from all their liabilites.

	28-10-2003 09:34									#13
	Remove this text

You cannot sue companies for such stupid reasons! You are not american!

	28-10-2003 11:57									#14
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True software malfunction is extremely rare due to the nature of software. Every software is identical in a way that every car could never be. Thus if software maker tests one, they test for all. However, software can have side effects or "features" such as backdoors. Unless the company promises that said software does not, then, well, they don't owe you nothing.

	28-10-2003 12:38									#15
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You can generally sue a software comapny if you can prove it that it's their fault. Generally, the end-user licensing agreement is held to be coercive - i.e., you don't get a chance to negotiate your terms - and therefore void. Of course, this varies from place to place.