28-10-2003 12:56									#31
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Berzerker, still I would favor the use of the new solar cells for power. Anything that frees one from the grid and costs less has got to be good. I cannot tell you how many times I have lost power here in Aptos. But we live in area where there are redwoods and other large trees that invariably fall and cut power during any wind or rain. It is rather annoying.

But think of it. In the third world, ordinary people who do not have access to a power grid can get electric power. This is almost as liberating as cell phones.

Which is why I believe the left will oppose the new technology. Anything that enhances personal freedom from the state they will oppose.

	28-10-2003 14:17									#32
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I pretty much agree with everyone here. I think much of the U.S. will be producing massive amounts of food. There will be off years though that cause crops to be lost due to drought and early frost. But for the most part, crop yields should increase.

I really don't think we'll have too much trouble adapting.

Basically I'm trying to point out that global warming isn't the end of the world.

	28-10-2003 17:36									#33
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--"The gulf stream will get shifted around due to global warming,"

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I don't think people in here realize just how little truly accurate data we have. People who make blanket pronouncements about what's going to happen are just amusing.

--"Berzerker, still I would favor the use of the new solar cells for power."

If those are real, I'd love to have them. They'd let me not pay the electric company, and I like things that mean I don't have to pay bills. Care to provide a link to the company that makes them?
The problem, of course, is whether or not they actual live up to the hype. I'm doubtful they will; most solar systems won't get you to, much less past, the break even point.

Wraith
"I'm really not a very nice person. I can say "I don't care" with a straight face, and really mean it."
-- Linus Torvalds

	28-10-2003 18:47									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ned If the commies of the world can put asside their wealth-envy just for a moment...

quote: Originally posted by Ned I assume you oppose the technological solution to global warming because it does not require a dismantling of US industry.

quote: Originally posted by Ned This, of course, is appalling to the environmentalists who seek first to destroy US power.

quote: Originally posted by Ned Which is why I believe the left will oppose the new technology. Anything that enhances personal freedom from the state they will oppose.

Jesus Christ... and you critisize Osweld for being close-minded. With your near godlike knowledge of others, why do you even bother trying to talk to us fools?

I hope this doesn't count as a personal attack. I'm just trying to point out that you make a bit too many assumptions to really engage in any sort of productive discussion.

	28-10-2003 19:34									#35
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So the planet is getting warmer. Two conclusions then.

First, local climates are going to change - warmer or colder, dryer or wetter but no-one is entirely sure.

Second, as the planet warms thermal expansion of the oceans will push sea levels up a few metres. If you live within, say, 5 metres of current mean sea level (and on the coast), MOVE!

Really this doesn't mean that much to anyone over 40 like me. By the time it gets serious enough to threaten a collapse of civilisation - if it ever gets that bad - I'll probably be dead. For all the ambitious young people who want to take over the world - you're welcome.

	28-10-2003 21:11									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Jesus Christ... and you critisize Osweld for being close-minded. With your near godlike knowledge of others, why do you even bother trying to talk to us fools? I hope this doesn't count as a personal attack. I'm just trying to point out that you make a bit too many assumptions to really engage in any sort of productive discussion.

Lorizael, I live in California and have been around the radical greens for some time, and have formed certain conclusions about their real agenda. If you watched their candidate at the gubanatorial debate here in late September, you heard nothing but class warfare arguments.

Of course there are people who are truly concerned about the environment. However, many of the environmentalist organizations appear to have been hijaced by the far left. The far left's primary objective in the world is the destruction or containment of US power. Ask Che.

	28-10-2003 21:13									#37
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Wraith, if you conduct a search on my name (I started the thread) with global warming in the title, you will find one on the new solar cell. It was just announced and has not entered mass production.

	28-10-2003 22:03									#38
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quote: Basically I'm trying to point out that global warming isn't the end of the world.

True.

quote: Second, as the planet warms thermal expansion of the oceans will push sea levels up a few metres. If you live within, say, 5 metres of current mean sea level (and on the coast), MOVE!

Not entirely true. Chances are oceans will draw back as large ice caps and glaciers form in the northern and southern hemispheres.

Ned: The solar cell was awesome Should come in very handy

I have environmental concerns, but more to do with polution and deforestation. I believe that "global warming" is a myth. Not so much that is happening, but in as much that there is anything we can do about it to either prevent it, slow it down, or even speed it up. All I know is that Mother Nature can be a beitch and if we F' with her too much she'll get us in the end.

Can we adapt: for sure. What will be the consiquences?... Who knows...

	28-10-2003 22:20									#39
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Global warming is a fact.
What we must do? invest in fusion power research, and fuel cells.

That's all.

	28-10-2003 23:18									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The far left's primary objective in the world is the destruction or containment of US power. Ask Che.

Actually, I think Che might say something about establishing a true communist society, but I dunno. He might also say that this task involves getting rid of the United States as we know it, but I doubt that Chegitz has any real desire to destroy America or any such thing.

But we're kinda getting off topic. You may have witnessed the behavior of a number of extremists, but realize that extremists are... well... at the extreme; they do not represent the opinion of the majority of any particular group.

	29-10-2003 05:16									#41
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--"So the planet is getting warmer."

Last time I really checked into it, even that much wasn't certain. It depends on which data set you look at and which range of dates you use. There's just, as I said before, not enough accuracy in most of our recorded temperatures for us to be able to make certain statements about a lot of this stuff.

--"It was just announced and has not entered mass production."

So the only real benefit is that it's cheap? At half the efficiency of standard silicon solar cells, I'm not sure how much this is going to help. Doesn't sound like it'll be easy for any household to get to the break-even point with these unless they've got a lot of land to put panels on.

Wraith
We have only two things to worry about - either that things will never get back to normal, or that they already have

	29-10-2003 05:49									#42
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Move inland, and invest heavily in oceanic agriculture.

Plus by some land in Kelowna, BC as it should be beachfront property!

	29-10-2003 06:55									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Actually, I think Che might say something about establishing a true communist society, but I dunno. He might also say that this task involves getting rid of the United States as we know it, but I doubt that Chegitz has any real desire to destroy America or any such thing. But we're kinda getting off topic. You may have witnessed the behavior of a number of extremists, but realize that extremists are... well... at the extreme; they do not represent the opinion of the majority of any particular group.

Perhaps we are only talking about radicals here. My first encounter with them was while I was in college during 1968. I attended an SDS meeting to find out what was going on, why they were protesting the war. Well, it turned out, they were communists and favored the other side. Also, they were against US Imperialism, etc.

If you listen to Che, et al., nothing has changed among the radicals in all this time. They still favor the other side to win and want to defeat US Imperialism.

In the US, and much of the West, radicals now find their home in the environmental groups and in the Green parties. These guys are only nominally pro-environment. Their primary objective remains as it was since the rise of the SDS: the victory of socialism/communism and the defeat of US Imperialism.

Now, keep that in mind when you are trying to predict how a radical environmentalist will come out on a issue. They will invariably favor the opponent of the US and will actively work against US power.

Now when the US government conducts a study that shows Global Warming will greatly benefit the United States, you know exactly where the radical environmentalists will be. They will be urging radical caps on US industry in order to harm the US economy. They have no real interest in stoppong global warming. If they did, they would have structured Kyoto to actually reduce greenhouse gasses in the world rather than just moving industry and jobs out of the US and into the third world that has no greenhouse gas caps.

Still, there are Republican environmentalists like Schwarzenegger (and me to an extent) who favor investment in new technology to reduce man's impact on the environment. We should structure tax incentives, etc., in order to encourage conservation and to reduce consumption. However, hard and fast limits on polution, or the imposition of high costs on industry only leads those same industries to leave the United States, harm the economy and do nothing at all to reduce global polution.

During the blackout crisis for which Gray Davis lost his job (among other things), I looked into putting a solar collector on my roof. The cost was high, but could be paid if I got a credit for the amount of power I would pump into the grid. What I found was that the utilities did not have to pay you if you put power into the grid - making solar panels uneconomic. At the time, I thought that this was lunacy. I still think this is lunacy. Which is why I came to the conclusion that the government really does not want you to unplug from the grid. They want to keep you dependent on the government regulators and bureaucrats that control that grid and your life.

	29-10-2003 09:44									#44
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"Global Warming is happening- What should we do about it? "

Turn on the air conditioning. Duh.

	29-10-2003 09:46									#45
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quote: I've read some biased articles that global warming is not happening, but really, come on. We all know what's going on. http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/scienc...g.ap/index.html I don't want to get into the same ole' argument about how humans aren't/are affecting climate change and global warming. We've done that to death. And I don't want to discuss the evil americans and the Kyoto protocol. Basically it's already too late. global warming is in full swing. And I don't think we could do anything to stop it in the next 100 years. Though that doesn't mean we shouldn't try- but that isn't important for this thread.

"The argument doesn't matter, because we've argued it to death and I'm right," is basically what you are saying.

	02-11-2003 12:29									#46
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I'm just bumping this thread to say Las Vegas had the warmest October on record.

Of course my city is only like 98 or 99 years old, so that doesn't mean much

	03-11-2003 02:51									#47
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Yeah? It's -10c here right now. Doesn't feel that warm to me.

	03-11-2003 03:01									#48
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of course now I said that, it is cool here.

I hate running the heat this early in the season

but if I don't run the heat, my hands get too cold to type and I can't post at Apolyton. we wouldn't want that would we?

	03-11-2003 03:07									#49
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Hey its cooler today than yesterday, omg its Global Cooling now!

	03-11-2003 04:00									#50
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Invest in sea defences, plant forests, invest in public transport, build windfarms, build covered reservoirs, invest in energy efficiency.

It would be folly to put all our eggs into one basket, relying on the eventual development of fusion or cheap solar. These may never happen.