29-10-2003 01:22									#1
	Jungle Blues Support Apolyton

I just started another game and am already ready to quit cause of the jungle blues. Maybe I'm giving up too easily but whenever I'm in this situation, I wind up getting screwed. I play huge maps on regent, so I don't usually have to worry about other civs until the middle ages and I do have time to rex a pretty big civ before turning to warfare. But the situation I'm in now, it seems like there's no way I'll be able to keep up. My starting position is on the edge of a single huge continent (though with pangaea you sometimes get one big one and one little one) and I have about enough grassland and plains around me to build five or six cities and then its nothing but jungle (and some mountains) for fifteen or twenty tiles in every direction (looks like more actually, I'm still slogging through it). Of course, the one saving grace of a situation like this is that it's insular. It takes anyone else a long time to get at you and it makes their fast movers useless. But - if I want to build any kind of decent-sized contiguous civ, I've got to build (at least!) twenty or more workers and set them to nothing but clearing jungle and even then it takes so long that any city I build in the jungle grows so slowly that by the time I do get the jungle cleared away, I am so far behind I can't catch up. You waste so much time and energy with a machete in your hand that other things get pushed down the queue - all those workers that should be roading and mining and irrigating are whacking at vines and chopping down trees instead. And when you find yourself at war and need to crank out military, those anemic jungle cities can't produce the shields to do it fast enough. And it's not just situations like the one I'm in now. I've been stuck in several situations with some pretty good grassland and plains to grow in but with a large swathe of impassable jungle on one side and one or two fast growing civs on the the other and, even if I rex like crazy, it isn't long before I'm up against my neighbors and have to start growing into the jungle. It's like hitting a brick wall. I know you need to grab some jungle to get a decent chance at coal and I always try and do that but if you're stuck with a third or more of your empire in jungle, it really drags you down. Nowadays whenever I see that I'm in a situation like this, I just fold and start another game. Am I giving in too easily? Are there other up-sides to the jungle blues? Is there a practical method of knocking that jungle out quickly and getting those jungle-bound cities to grow more quickly?

	29-10-2003 01:57									#2
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Not to mention units sometimes dying from jungle disease It will put you behind starting in a situation like that. Anyway, don't restart and give up though, it takes the fun out of it Keep getting workers and clear those jungles as fast as you can. In the meantime hopefully you will get contact with other civs. When you do concentrate on getting territory maps first, then world maps. The bottom line is your civ needs better land, more land and valuable resources.

Eye out a weaker civ which has richer and more valuable land then you. If there is one and you can get a decent military together, you may want to consider an attack. Of course if you can get to an unpopulated island or continent without starting a war, thats even better. If you can find just a half populated continent thats good too. If you can't then war will have to be an option and maybe your only way catching up. You really have to plan it all out though and make it work. A good military attack strategy can be very effective but just not 100%. So in the end, it may or may not work. Its all worth a try though. Good luck!

	29-10-2003 01:59									#3
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Two questions:

1) Are you industrious?
2) Can you get one or more cities in the non-jungle area up to +5 food/turn?

The thing about jungle is that once you cut it down, there is beautiful grassland underneath it. Even if you're not industrious, with granary cities pumping workers, you might be surprised how fast you can turn a big jungle into a nice place to be. Still, it's better not to have to deal with that

If you're a builder who is going to lay low until at least the middle ages anyway, you've got time to concentrate on some jungle chopping, right?

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 02:34									#4
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1 Play as an industrious civ.

2 Use the editor to reduce the number of turns it takes to clear jungle (imagine your workers suddenly have the bright idea of burning it!)

3 Play as the Indians and use the editor to allow War Elephants to treat jungle as clear. Then you can strike at the other civs easily and their units will be obsolete by the time they struggle through the jungle to get to your core cities.

	29-10-2003 02:37									#5
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quote: 2 Use the editor to reduce the number of turns it takes to clear jungle (imagine your workers suddenly have the bright idea of burning it!)

Then you ought to get plains or even desert out of it instead of grassland, though

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 02:40									#6
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quote: The thing about jungle is that once you cut it down, there is beautiful grassland underneath it.

Yeah, that's true and there's the coal thing too. I hate it when I've got a nice big civ thumping along on all cylinders and then, after researching steam, my coal is just across the border in someone else's jungle and I've got to go and fight for it (just a builder at heart I guess). And another good thing (just trying to pick up on your positive tone here), as you push the jungle away from your civ, you're also pushing it in your neighbor's face. Even when it gets thinner, it's still going to stop their fast movers like a brick wall. Also a good way to think about mountains. Think of them as "my mountains". Nobody ever conquered the Swiss. And, if you have time, you can build fortified escape hatches in the jungle and mountain walls so that you can get out easily but your neighbors can't use them the same way. Also the principle of the Royal Navy, I suppose. Own the wall.

	29-10-2003 02:55									#7
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start a new game

	29-10-2003 04:23									#8
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Or I could start a new game.

	29-10-2003 08:18									#9
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It really comes down to what you prefer. If you want a new experience, go for it. If not start a new game and have more fun.
Some times it can be interesting to gut out bad starts, but on a huge map, it can be depressing.

	29-10-2003 09:32									#10
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I get this a lot, and often with less good land than can handle 6 cities.

The worst thing is slogging away through it. If you can actually summon up the courage and patience to clear it all away (means you build more granaries/workers and fewer of anything else) then you will often find yourself reaching a great position in the game. The only bugbear is ensuring you still have Iron and Horses, so you may need to expand beyond the jungle for these things.

Honestly, jungle starts are demoralising, but you can end up doing rather well in the midgame (indirectly) because of them. What difficulty are you at? If you can avoid wear (Monarch or lower), then concentrate all your energies on pecefully expanding and clearing. You may not get as much as some other civs, but you will have set yourself up to take them on later.

	29-10-2003 12:10									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If he has all the mountains he mentioned, I would sure hope one has some iron. Now that would be a real nasty deal, all that jungle and mountains, get no iron or coal or gems.

	30-10-2003 18:53									#12
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I presume that if you clear jungle, you reduce your chances of getting those late-game resources that turn up in jungles....such as coal, ummm, rubber too? (I forget). Perhaps somebody who knows could clarify on this point.

Personally I like the challenge of clearing jungles, due to the rewards that can come in the industrial age once you've accelerated your growth by first irrigating your cleared tiles, then mining....remember that often the cleared jungle tiles end up as shielded grassland.

Also, it seems to me that the AI rarely settles on jungles, so you can keep that artificial national barrier there without bothering to settle it for some time, concentrating your workers on improving your core cities....then send all the buggers out at one to clear it and transform your empire with a swag of new settlers.

Cheers!

	30-10-2003 18:58									#13
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I presume that if you clear jungle, you reduce your chances of getting those late-game resources that turn up in jungles....such as coal, ummm, rubber too? (I forget). Perhaps somebody who knows could clarify on this point.

Personally I like the challenge of clearing jungles, due to the rewards that can come in the industrial age once you've accelerated your growth by first irrigating your cleared tiles, then mining....remember that often the cleared jungle tiles end up as shielded grassland.

Also, it seems to me that the AI rarely settles on jungles, so you can keep that artificial national barrier there without bothering to settle it for some time, concentrating your workers on improving your core cities....then send all the buggers out at one to clear it and transform your empire with a swag of new settlers.

Cheers!

	30-10-2003 19:39									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

It is more of a challenge when you start the game in a jungle or have to expand into it early. I generally will crank out more workers than usual early on in such a game. On Deity, however, I will just start the game over because there is no way to get a powerful base of 6 cities if you are in or near a vast jungle.

If you would rather not deal with jungles at all, then make sure the world creation settings are not 'wet' when you create a new game. Or keep starting the game over...

	30-10-2003 21:01									#15
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quote: I presume that if you clear jungle, you reduce your chances of getting those late-game resources that turn up in jungles....such as coal, ummm, rubber too? (I forget). Perhaps somebody who knows could clarify on this point.

Incorrect. Clearing the jungle will have no effect. The resources are placed there at the beginning and will still show up when you discover the right tech, even if the tile is now grassland instead of jungle.

-Arrian

	30-10-2003 21:23									#16
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Call me a whimp but I tend to restart games where I am located close or on jungles. I've learned that in Monarch if you don't expand fast or kill people quick you're gonna fall behind the AI. Once that happens it's game over. At least for me anyway.

	31-10-2003 02:59									#17
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One thing to keep in mind is that Settlers clear jungle, too. It's rarely economical to be building a Settler just to clear a single tile of jungle, but if you've got a lot of jungle and time, you can start cities in the midst of thick jungle which will disband themselves by creating a new Settler, settle on another jungle tile, and repeat. Time-consuming, but so is that twenty-four turn (C)lear Jungle job.

City-spacing is really important in jungle starts; I try to make it a habit to focus on Clearing those jungle tiles which can be used by more than one city, and do a lot of micro-managing to make sure my citizens make the most of the cleared tiles on every given turn.

No big secret, but (C)lear then (R)oad is much more efficient than the other way around.

I'll start wars and pay cash just to get slaves; they make take twice the time, but they're free -- it costs nothing in maintenance to have two slaves who do the work of one Worker.

I suppose that I'm just arguing that Jungle starts take some extra work, which I happen to not mind. I can see why people don't find them fun enough to continue from. One thing you might want to do is check out the thinking and discussion around 'Poly's first Democracy game, which was a jungle start that was turned into a success.

	01-11-2003 00:27									#18
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If there are good rivers running from the mountains through the jungle - I think about continuing.

If I have rivers, mountains and coast in my jungle, I continue.

If I'm in the middle of landmass with no mountains, rivers or coast -- FORGET IT!!!!!!!!

Shogun Gunner

P.S. Even ecologically minded civers are a bit more forgiving of Brazil cutting down the Amazon

	01-11-2003 05:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by jkelly No big secret, but (C)lear then (R)oad is much more efficient than the other way around.

For a single worker or stack, yes. If, however, I know that in a few turns, I'm going to have a boost in available workers (travel, production or finishing nearby jobs), there are times I find it more beneficial to go ahead and road, so they can immediately start chopping, rather than wasting the turns moving onto the jungle. Admittedly, that's not an extremely common confluence of circumstances, but not exactly rare, either.

	01-11-2003 20:44									#20
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One thing that frustrates me when I am starting new is finding large tracts of desert. If there is a floodplain, I continue, but if the desert would cause a big gap in my city network, I restart.

	02-11-2003 02:48									#21
	Road, then Clear Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi ...there are times I find it more beneficial to go ahead and road, so they can immediately start chopping, rather than wasting the turns moving onto the jungle.

Solomwi, I do that regularly myself, but generally it is in the Industrial Age, when I can give up some efficiency on any particular tile to maximize use of large Worker stacks.

	02-11-2003 17:30									#22
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If I am in emperor generally I use Shift-Ctrl-Q.
I did try a deity game in the jungle but it soon became depressing.

If I am in monarch:
Hell Yea, Jungle building beside rivers can be fun when you have 3 other good city sites.
If possible, use a floodplain city to pump out workers like mad. Don't be afraid to have as many as 45 workers. When they're done jungle clearing by the middle ages they can be a real boost.
Clearing the tiles beside rivers is like opening a gift. Got a shield square? Mine it. Got a plain grassland square? Wait for a way out of Despotism then come back and irrigate it.
Always try to stack workers when clearing a Jungle tile.
You don't need all 8 squares when you start a city. Like jkelly pointed out - clear jungle tiles that may be used alternatively by two cities. When one loses a citizen, the other might use the tile. Micromanage, micromanage.
If you find another civ stuck in a jungle, they're bound to have lots of workers too. Note that some civs are better suited for jungle. Don't try Aztecs with wet maps (poor fellows).

	02-11-2003 17:33									#23
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By stacking I dont mean put 10 on a tile, but also dont have 5 workers working on 5 different tiles for 24 turns for only one city radius

	03-11-2003 01:19									#24
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Yeah teams of 2-3 native workers or a stack of 4 captured ones can plow thru it in half the time, industriious or not.

1 worker = 24 turn
2 = 12 turns
3= ~8 (IIRC)

And that's -non- industrious later when it gets down to just cleaning pollutiin you can always rejoin a few to your cities to produce more too

	06-11-2003 08:27									#25
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This is my stategy for dealing with large jungle tracts. It works well enough with non-industrious civs, but when I play France, I LOVE jungles!

* Dedicate one or two cities as settler pumps. Don't bother making them create workers, those will come from jungle cities and sprawl cities that are capping on population.

* In your clear land, build an urban sprawl. Designate core cities that will eventually take structures, and villages that will generate settlers, military units (with temporary barracks), and will work every productive tile. You'll the gold from the villages to make up for the lack from jungle cities.

* Establish jungle cities using your normal mid-end game city spacing. I try for 4-5 tiles between cities to maximize population in the Industrial/Modern ages.

* After the city is established you'll usually have one shield and one excess food. Build in the following order: 1 warrior (for defense and MP), one worker, and then a temple (library if you are scientific). You'll need your first culture strucuture to firm up your national boundaries.

* This may seem counterintuitive, but use your city's local worker to build roads before clearing land. You'll have plenty of time while building the culture structure, and the opportunity cost for slow movement through jungle is higher than the efficieny of clearing before roading. Have each city build it's first road back towards the capital connecting the next closest city. Once the connection is made, back the worker to his home city and start clearing jungle only on the roaded tile. Only clear roaded jungle tiles in the neighborhood until unroaded are left.

I find that since the AI doesn't like jungles, you'll be somewhat insulated from the more aggressive civs. You can set up great frontline defenses for the more ambitious ones, and your road network will give you a huge tactical advantage, especially against enemy horsie rushes. The most outlying jungle cities facing another civ should rush build city walls either before or after building the first culture structure.

Note; it's also important to mine every tile in sight. The more jungle you have the less high-shield tiles you have, and your game loss will usually come about from lack of production. Make a beeline to Engineering as soon as you hit the Medieval age so you can start planting forests.

Scott

	11-11-2003 07:09									#26
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Find the spices, silks and diamonds. Trade, get rich! At Regent, I think you should be fine. Expand toward some clear land, if you can, and send the jungle crew back later to clear the jungle. A huge map is a commitment though, so don't feel like a quitter if you hit Ctrl-Shift-Q. You might want to play it out. It can be fun to win with adverse starting conditions, but not Emperor or Deity.

I have been trying Deity recently and had a jungle start. To add insult to injury, the Greeks sneak attacked me with Hoplites and Archers, just as I was getting settled in. I think there is something in the AI for Greeks and Germans that makes them do that. Crtl-Shift-Q.

	11-11-2003 09:56									#27
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Just examine the first Civ3 demogame. That'll show you what to do

	11-11-2003 18:24									#28
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Puma/Infoscott:

You guys have me rethinking jungle starts. I play on monarch and your strategies seem like a good idea. Thanks I'll give it a try.

	11-11-2003 20:04									#29
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knecht

have you got that 4000 BC save in your autosave folder? if so, please post it... i woundn't mind trying it and don't feel like creating my own map (i always tend to give myself too many resources then )

	11-11-2003 21:53									#30
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Sorry Sabrewolf, I must have cleaned out my save folder since then (this thread has been hanging around for a couple weeks and I've started at least two games since then). That map was really a *****. I've bulled my way through a few games with a lot of jungle but that map had me in a little pocket of grassland and plains that was right on the coast of a pangaea continent and utterly surrounded by huge swathes of jungle and mountains. There was just nowhere to go but through the jungle or across the sea. I am glad I started the thread though. It generated a lot of good strategies from out there and some new and creative ways of thinking about jungle. I don't think I'll be so easily put off by the jungle blues in the future.