31-10-2003 17:46									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Why don't they think of this..

Because all the parties are terrified that if they ever hold a referendum on one thing they will be pressured to hold one on something else and it will snowball into government by referendum.

So the opposition call for a referendum until they become the government and then forget about it whilst the government claim a referendum is not necessary until they become the opposition and it then does become necessary (to embarrass the government). Simple really!

	31-10-2003 17:51									#63
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Yes, and referenda are pretty expensive to hold too

	31-10-2003 17:52									#64
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Now I am wise in hindsight, I am going to vote 'no' in the poll

	31-10-2003 18:00									#65
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I hate the idea of referendum ..

What percentage of people do you think would vote after carefully considering the pro's or con's ?? Im not convinced that decisions should be made in this way, thats why we elect people in the first place...

If politicians can't make decisions, then we have no further need for them.

The commons should be called to vote on UK entry to the Euro .. and if the UK public don't like their choice, they can always vote for another party.

	31-10-2003 18:04									#66
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy If politicians can't make decisions, then we have no further need for them.

Well when you put it like that actually I think we should have referenda all the time

	31-10-2003 18:14									#67
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Coming back a bit more to the topic, I wonder what excuse the parliamentary conservative party will find to not put Howard (assuming he is the only one to stand) to a vote of the membership in case he doesn't get an endorsement?

	31-10-2003 22:00									#68
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Could someone clear up for me what the procedure would be if howard was the only one to stand. I assumed he would automatically get the place, thus spelling the end for democracy in the tory party.

	31-10-2003 22:05									#69
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From what I've heard, the leadership only goes to a membership vote if there are two candidates MP's can't decide between. So with just Howard endorsed, there won't be a membership vote. Thus showing that Tory MP's are democracy hating vampires who steal money from children to finance their twisted sex rituals which they offer up every dark mass to a statue of Thatcher copulating with Satan himself.

I'm tempted not to even put a smilie in cause it's so close to the truth...

	31-10-2003 22:05									#70
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Perfect imagery

	01-11-2003 00:04									#71
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quote: Coming back a bit more to the topic, I wonder what excuse the parliamentary conservative party will find to not put Howard (assuming he is the only one to stand) to a vote of the membership in case he doesn't get an endorsement?

My understanding of the situation is that if Howard is the only successfully nominated candidate he will be put forward to the membership for ratification. What I don't see is how Howard being the only candidate spells "the end of democracy"... you can't fabricate competition where there isn't any.

Plenty of people, for example, are nominated unopposed for council seats up and down the country... that hardly spells the end of local democracy, does it?

	01-11-2003 00:22									#72
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If you want to whine about unelected beurocrats in europe, then there can be no way you would accept an unelected leader.

Potential candidates will hesitate to come forward if they are cowed by the howard machine. Frightening the competition into submission doesnt seem very democratic to me.

A council seat is one thing, someone who controls the direction of the party is very much another.

	01-11-2003 00:28									#73
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What happens if the party membership vote against howard?

	01-11-2003 00:36									#74
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quote: then there can be no way you would accept an unelected leader

There is a contest. Nominations close on Thursday. In the event that only one candidate comes forward, I don't see how that's undemocratic; it's not like other candidates couldn't come forward had they so wished. You can't fabricate a contest!

quote: What happens if the party membership vote against howard?

Then we'll reopen the nominations again, and look very silly. I can't see it happening myself though...

	01-11-2003 00:47									#75
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quote: In the event that only one candidate comes forward, I don't see how that's undemocratic; it's not like other candidates couldn't come forward had they so wished.

As said by [insert your favorite dictator].

If I were a tory member, I would vote for howard, but only because he would bring the party together. I would never forgive him for taking away the members elected leader, and I would never forgive him for organizing this one horse race.

	01-11-2003 01:00									#76
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He hasn't taken away the leader, and he hasn't organised a one-horse race. I think it's remarkable that a party that everyone insisted was riven with splits and completely unleadable has united so quickly behind Michael Howard, and it is rather telling that the best the Conservatives' political opponents can do is make cheap jibes (re: front page of the Mirror yesterday) or resort to the rather tatty arguments about "lack of democracy" that you have put forward.

The Conservative Party is now the most united in mainstream British politics. Labour is riven with fundamental disagreements over key policies, and the Liberal Democrats cannot agree with each other over anything (witness the grassroots reaction to Kennedy's reshuffle last month). Meanwhile, the Conservatives have drawn a watershed under the petty leadership squabbling and can move forward with a radical, coherent set of policies towards the next general election.

Bring on 2005.

	01-11-2003 01:02									#77
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hmmmmm......something just struck me, maybe its all a cunning plan(hatched by baldrik from Black Adder), Tony fearing a rather closer than expected re-election after the recent few bad momments of his premiership, pulled some strings to make sure this happened as planned.

Now the only possible threat(small maybe but growing) he faces is from the Liberals. So lets see if anything untoward happens to them in the run up(like maybe David Steel coming back?).

Its all a really cunning plan! Black Adder has alot to answer for.

	01-11-2003 01:04									#78
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The Liberal Democrats are about as threatening as a nine-year-old Eminem fan with a waterpistol.

	01-11-2003 01:18									#79
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quote: I think it's remarkable that a party that everyone insisted was riven with splits and completely unleadable has united so quickly behind Michael Howard

Remarkable? How about unbelievable. The reason everyone has fallen into line is fear of the howard power block. How can you believe he was not the one behind all of this, or at least the figurehead? Anyone sticking their head up now had better be prepared to commit political suicide if they fail. Thats not the way it should be.

If they are so united then why only 75-90? Doesnt seem very united to me. Was this vote anonymous?

Cheap jibes are a way of political life, as is putting down solid arguments as being 'tatty'

Its difficult to please a broad base of members. When a party shifts to the right, they undoubtedly annoy their left. The lib dems need to draw away dissatisfied tory voters, and they have done it in a way so as to prevent a mass exodus from the left.

Claiming that the torys are the most united based on two days is absurd. The leadership contest isnt even over, let alone the disquiet soon the be felt in the constituencies.

	01-11-2003 01:20									#80
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from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3228669.stm

quote: At the last election Mr Howard's majority fell from 6,332 to 5,907. Mr Davis - who is shadow deputy prime minister - had his majority reduced from 7,514 to 1,903 at the 2001 general election. In order to win his Haltemprice and Howden constituency the Lib Dems need a 2.2% swing. Also in 2001, Mrs May saw her majority in Maidenhead slashed from 11,981 to 3,284. Lib Dems need a swing of 3.8% to unseat her. Shadow cabinet colleague Tim Collins is also vulnerable to a Lib Dem challenge, as is ex-health secretary Virginia Bottomley.

Not threatening?

	01-11-2003 01:34									#81
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Michael Howard will not lose Folkestone & Hythe. That's a Liberal Democrat pipedream (it's also the only way they've been able to get into the news at all over the past week). No-one is denying that there are a number of key Con/LibDem marginals but let's be honest... if they cannot take seats like Dorset West in 1997 and 2001 with the Conservative Party at it's lowest ebb, when will they take them?

The interesting thing is to look at the Tory/LibDem marginals in 2001... places like Wells where the yellows poured everything at the Tory majority of just 528 was strengthened into one of over 2700... the same thing happened in Totnes, Tiverton, Bridgwater, Christchuch (maj now 13000), Southend (maj now nearly 8000)... I'm not sure I need to go on... amongst a handful of Liberal Democrat gains were a swathe of marginals turning away from their lies and deceit.

	01-11-2003 01:38									#82
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quote: The leadership contest isnt even over, let alone the disquiet soon the be felt in the constituencies.

It's pretty clear that you haven't got the slightest clue about the Conservative Party or it's membership... what disquiet? I'm going to the Selby constituency SGM and selection meeting tomorrow... the mood there will be as upbeat as the rest of the party is. Even Nick Assinder on BBC Online is praising us. Roll on 2005.

	01-11-2003 01:54									#83
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And the only way the torys got into the news was to backstab their leader.

So people are fickle? You may get some of your voters back, but we have kept others from you. In the recent climate of large sudden swings, the smaller gains go unnoticed. And it is not merely a matter of beating the tories down.

I would still like to know how you could be happy under a leader who has risen to where he is due to his schemeing and plotting skills. Shouldnt he gain the position based on his policies and his ability to lead?

Im certain some torys have escaped the brainwashing and feel the same way I do about howard. If they choose not to publicly show it now, then fair enough. Best make sure you toe the party line or else they might drag you back in for another session.

	01-11-2003 01:56									#84
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Its good when your party feels upbeat, isnt it? That feelings been gone a while, hasnt it?

	01-11-2003 01:59									#85
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Michael Howard has support from all wings of the party (look at his list of declared supporters - everyone from Portillo to David Davis), is a heavyweight, respected politician, and is someone the broad church of the Conservative Party can unite behind as we take the sound policy base we have already developed forward towards the next general election.

Michael Howard has got both the policies and the leadership credentials necessary for the position. The Conservative Party is now the most united party in British mainstream politics - be that on policy or on leadership. Blair is in trouble, the Liberal Democrats are unprincipled flounderers, and the Tories are now placed to capitalise.

	01-11-2003 02:00									#86
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quote: Roll on 2005

Yes, do.

Another 5 years of Tony

If the tories suddenly think they are electable, then its even less of a challenge than I thought.

As for the mood of the party, and the word "Upbeat" in the same sentance .. thats simply amazing that you combined them and kept a straight face (or did you ??)

The Tories I know are totally distraught with what has happened, far from being upbeat, they simply are resigned to losing the next election, and hope that by 2010, they may be ready.

Had you said "Roll on 2010" .. then I may have accepted that. Its the Lib Dems who should be saying Roll on 2005 .. not the Tories.

	01-11-2003 02:09									#87
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Most united for two days. Give the ingrained backbiting tory instinct some time to kick in.

Blairs and Kennedys leaderships are in trouble? First I heard of it. As for their policies being less united, well thats a price you pay
for being left wing. Its not so easy for us to condemn all immigrants to an island.

And we are unprincipled because of our 'lies and deceit'? Show me a party that doesnt lie or deceive.

	02-11-2003 04:46									#88
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"Left-wing"? I thought the Liberal Democrats were pretending to be centre-right at the moment? Make your mind up! It's exactly this sort of thing that makes you guys such a joke...

	02-11-2003 15:19									#89
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Left, right, whatever. Being a centre party means we are going to have policies from the left and the right. Sometimes we are going to be slated because people cant grasp the concept. The cabinet is always going to have a slant to it, and its a very smart move to highlight our right like this.

Howard plans on cutting tax. Which hospitals and schools is he planning on closing? I find policies like this morally repugnant, punishing the least fortunate as they do.

On a different note, it has been very kind of the postal workers to strike and drive the torys from the news. I think tony owes them one.

	02-11-2003 15:58									#90
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* The interesting thing is to look at the Tory/LibDem marginals in 2001... places like Wells where the yellows poured everything at the Tory majority of just 528 was strengthened into one of over 2700... the same thing happened in Totnes, Tiverton, Bridgwater, Christchuch (maj now 13000), Southend (maj now nearly 8000)... I'm not sure I need to go on... amongst a handful of Liberal Democrat gains were a swathe of marginals turning away from their lies and deceit.

While I can only speak for the West Country seats you mention, I think you're being highly selective. Rural Somerset/Dorset is, and always has been, Tory heartland. The fact that majorities are down to 2700 (even if that is a minor reversal) is nothing short of staggering. In the 80's it would have been 15000.

Take Wansdyke. North Somerset true blue Tory through and through. In 1987 their majority under Jack Aspinwall was 17,000+. It's not a Tory costituency any more. That's a staggering, staggering reversal and indicative of a very sick party.