01-11-2003 09:37									#61
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i learned computing when i was less than six. now, i'm a generous lover of computers, so i'm not microsoft-monogamous.
but i haven't negleted microsoft... indeed, i spend much time with it.

	01-11-2003 11:33									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy Dang Asher, you're narrowing things down quite a bit, aren't you? Minor problems like this happens to all kinds of new products from all companies in all industries all the time. It's nothing to be too concerned about.

The problem is Apple is far more prone to "minor" problems like this than most other vendors.

Why do you think Apple sees next to no adoption in the business segment?

Business users don't have much of a problem with price premiums (ThinkPads are expensive), but they're quality and very functional.

IBM puts the ThinkPads through extensive testing, this is part of the reason why it takes a week of "validation" after you order a ThinkPad before it is shipped, provided the parts were in stock. The designs are also put through durability testing, like dropping a ThinkPad from several heights as well as down a flight of stairs (which is why you see them making things like HD Shock Absorbers and the new active-drive protection technology which parks the disk heads when an accelerometer detects it's being dropped). They put a lot of power into R&Ding reliable, fast, and durable notebooks -- Apple puts a lot of money into R&Ding the next color scheme of PowerBooks.

Apple also has a ridiculously short warranty, as opposed to IBM's 3-year (not to mention the default 6-month unconditional warranty (loss, theft, accidental breakage, etc)). They also have a very well deserved reputation of sacrificing functionality for style or even for cost savings (see the puny keyboard on the 15", 17" powerbooks, or the one-button mouse shipped by default), and also have a well-deserved reputation for skimping on beta testing in order to keep things a secret so Jobs can get his rocks off at all of the drooling lackeys orgasming over his announcements at MacWorld.

Apple is a company that needs continue working in the functionality standpoint (they've shown great strides in this department, most notably Expose), but if anything their quality is certainly on the downslide.

For a company with such a small share of the market, problems with Apple products (iTunes, OS 10.3/Panther, PowerBooks) have been all over the news.

You'd have to be blind not to recognize the problem.

	01-11-2003 11:35									#63
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by St Leo Prevent kids from learning how to use computers while they are young, and they'll stick with Microsoft for life.

I've had a computer in my house for as long as I can remember.

	01-11-2003 23:53									#64
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Asher, I'm simply going to call foul to the fact that in the past you've expressed... annoyance at Mac-users stating that

quote: "my Mac can kick your win-doze's machine's butt!"

Yet, isn't that what you're doing to Mac users? Trolling to anger them?

I use Apple because my tastes and preferences lead me in that direction. I'm sorry that some Apple users are having problems, but note that only the bad stuff generally makes it to the news.

Recall the fact that those worms a month or two ago supposedly were big news? Some Mac users pointed and laughed and said,

quote: 'ha ha! I'm invincible! See, Mac is better than Win-doze!'

It was then that you pointed out the fact that it wasn't because of Mac invincibility, but lack of Mac market share, to which I agree.

But now I'd like to point out your hipocracy. All the news articles have done is say that it's all right for your tastes and preferences to be 'better' than that of Mac-users' tastes and preferences.

That is not the case as we are all individuals, and until Mac users start bashing Windows again, from how clearly you've made your stance in the past in the Mac forum, you really ought to wait and knock down Mac users' misconceptions, not call them out of the woodwork to pick fights with.

	01-11-2003 23:58									#65
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What's wrong with it?

People post anti-bush posts. So?

People post pro-bush posts. So?

Almost everything you post (excluding IWS and thread's like, for example, Pekka's pool thread) will spark an argument. That's the GOOD thing about the OT forums.

It isn't Asher's fault that he is clearly right

	02-11-2003 00:08									#66
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I'm not calling anybody down but Asher, skywalker, who has previously expounded on being 'better' than to say one is better than the other and simply point out flaws in Mac-fanatic's arguements.

I could care less on the rest (other's postings) since I haven't read them make statements that would by hypocritical, I'm just pointing out the hypocracy of one whom I would like to understand the motivation of the change.

	02-11-2003 00:20									#67
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What is wrong with pointing out flaws in someone's argument? If he constantly wins these arguments, either a) he's right, b) he's a way better debater (take that Mr. "I'm-A-Philosophy-Professor-and-Thus-Am-Smarter-Than-You" Agathon ), or c) both. There is no hypocrisy involved.

	02-11-2003 00:24									#68
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The Mac arguments usually involve Asher winning or the thread being locked. The arguments about every other OS than Mac or Windows usually stalemate and thus become a dung-throwing contest until the thread is locked.

	02-11-2003 00:33									#69
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker What is wrong with pointing out flaws in someone's argument? If he constantly wins these arguments, either a) he's right, b) he's a way better debater (take that Mr. "I'm-A-Philosophy-Professor-and-Thus-Am-Smarter-Than-You" Agathon ), or c) both. There is no hypocrisy involved.

* FlameFlash sighs.

Please reread my two posts or ask for clarification, I don't understand how this comment came out of those as a response.

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell The Mac arguments usually involve Asher winning or the thread being locked. The arguments about every other OS than Mac or Windows usually stalemate and thus become a dung-throwing contest until the thread is locked.

True, and I hate it when that happens as well which is why I thought I was asking kindly for a reason why Asher decided to pick the fight this time as opposed to point out Mac user flaunting falseness.

	02-11-2003 00:35									#70
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quote: True, and I hate it when that happens as well which is why I thought I was asking kindly for a reason why Asher decided to pick the fight this time as opposed to point out Mac user flaunting falseness.

You hate it when Asher wins or it is a stalemate?

	02-11-2003 00:38									#71
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* FlameFlash sighs.

When the thread is locked due to a loss of civility.

	02-11-2003 00:52									#72
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Not Asher's fault Agathon and Drake violate the rules and make fun of his SO

	02-11-2003 00:59									#73
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Anyway, I don't think Asher's 'trolls' are any worse than when UR or Agathon post an anti-Microsoft post. It's just because Asher routinely whips them do I think that the Macheads resent his presence.

	02-11-2003 01:25									#74
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**shrug** Yeah, I'd feel pretty safe and superior posting repeatedly about the alleged deficiencies of "x" when such postings are made only among mostly like-minded people.

The day I see Asher go to the Web site link I provided and post what he posts here — along with the arrogant attitude that seems to permeat his Apple-related topics — there is the day I'll grant him more respect when it comes to his views on Apple. If he can go there and defuse the counter-arguments they throw at him, more power to him.

Until then, what he does is no different than a Mac user who rants and raves amid a sea of fellow Mac users about the deficiencies of the PC and the people who use them.

And, for the record, I'm still considering getting a PC the next time I upgrade my computer. It's all about balance in the end, and that's what I'm working with now — Apple or PC? Well, what works best is what I'll get, and it's not automatically a PC or Apple.

Gatekeeper

	02-11-2003 01:28									#75
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Actually, in Asher's threads, it's pretty even in terms of numbers. Two or three people on his side (including him), two or three people on the other.

This is not a pure PC forum. Those mac boards are pure Mac forums.

	02-11-2003 01:35									#76
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I'd hope so. They don't call it MacCentral for nothing. That said, there are some PC users there ... but like Mac folks at 'Poly, they're outnumbered 100 to 1.

Come to think of it, there are folks there who use both systems as well, and find both useful to some degree.

Gatekeeper

	02-11-2003 02:08									#77
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quote: so wiglaf, try and remember not everybody is out of the woods, financially. some of us have other, quite tangible things we're responsible for, ones which take up a larger chunk of our resources than we'd like. stfu.

If you buy a $1000-2500 computer but can't put up the $130 for a major upgrade to its operating system, then sorry, you shouldn't have bought the computer in the first place, because you're in a really interesting financial circumstance.

***** and moan about extortion once you can prove a) there are major holes in your current OS and b) that Apple intends to provide only a paid option to fix said holes.

But you can't purchase a $1500 computer and then act like $130 is over your head. Does anyone here actually have a serious computer? And a need for every little security hole in their new OS to be patched? Then if you can't afford a $130 pricetag to quench your need for perfection, I'm very suprised indeed.

"I'm poor and offended" gets you the moral high ground, but not much else.

	02-11-2003 02:14									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper The day I see Asher go to the Web site link I provided and post what he posts here — along with the arrogant attitude that seems to permeat his Apple-related topics — there is the day I'll grant him more respect when it comes to his views on Apple. If he can go there and defuse the counter-arguments they throw at him, more power to him.

Those people are more than welcome to PM me.

I am not going to go to some Mac fansite so I can be inundated with people like Agathon and Drake who don't have a clue what they're talking about and think they're right.

My best friend is a loyal Mac user, and he's very competent with computers (same year CS as me, builds RAIDs and computational clusters for the biochem research at the uni), and he concedes virtually every point when I debate with him about it -- his only response is "So? I like it". Which is basically the only valid response there is.

	02-11-2003 02:16									#79
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Wiglaf - microsoft fixes security bugs for FREE, and continues support for years. Apple doesn't continue support beyond the next release, and CHARGES to fix bugs.

	02-11-2003 02:18									#80
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XP was not free.

http://www.info.apple.com/

	02-11-2003 02:21									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf XP was not free. http://www.info.apple.com/

Of course XP was not free -- XP was a major release.

MS is on a 5-year release cycle, for $99 upgrades. Apple is on a 1-year release cycle, with $129 upgrades.

Do the math.

	02-11-2003 02:22									#82
	Put an end to popups!

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25524

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61798

	02-11-2003 02:26									#83
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quote: Of course XP was not free -- XP was a major release.

Panther is a major release too...bigger than XP, actually.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/

	02-11-2003 02:28									#84
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However, with the release of XP they are still releasing FREE security fixes for 2000.

	02-11-2003 03:09									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Panther is a major release too...bigger than XP, actually. http://www.apple.com/macosx/

It is in no way a bigger release than XP...not even close.

	02-11-2003 03:49									#86
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Asher-

"Security firm @Stake found four of the vulnerabilities and worked with Apple to fix them in time for the release of Panther."

Are there any more specifics about these "vulnerabilities" ? You haven't said anything more about them. Who do they affect, what do they do, have they done it before, etc etc. Is there a formal writeup on them anywhere?

Skywalker, if Apple has no need to continue supporting its old software then it will not. You have no reason to think there are security vulnerabilities in previous versions of Mac OS that weren't already fixed on Apple's support site. Unless you buy this as yet unwarranted article.

And even if there were a minor security flaw Mac OS, $130 is nothing. You bought the computer, you're serious about security. Don't be a cheap bastard now.

quote: It is in no way a bigger release than XP...not even close.

What makes you think that?

	02-11-2003 04:04									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Asher- "Security firm @Stake found four of the vulnerabilities and worked with Apple to fix them in time for the release of Panther." Are there any more specifics about these "vulnerabilities" ? You haven't said anything more about them. Who do they affect, what do they do, have they done it before, etc etc. Is there a formal writeup on them anywhere?

You can blame Apple for that one -- they don't have the same full disclosure policy of Microsoft.

The @Stake people contacted them and worked to fix them, Apple told them they didn't plan to patch anything prior to 10.3 and all of the Bugtraq postings in the "vendor response" section said "Upgrade to 10.3" to fix the bug.

Since the bug was resolved, Apple was very vague in what they were and didn't release details. MS releases the details, Apple doesn't.

quote: What makes you think that?

WinME -> WinXP was like OS 9 -> OS X.

	02-11-2003 05:38									#88
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quote: The @Stake people contacted them and worked to fix them, Apple told them they didn't plan to patch anything prior to 10.3 and all of the Bugtraq postings in the "vendor response" section said "Upgrade to 10.3" to fix the bug.

To me that means the bug is minor at best. To you it means there's a major glitch that Apple is holding over its desperate consumers. We can go back and forth and this all day.

You have no proof there is any real danger to users who don't purchase Panther and you certainly cannot accuse Apple of holding anyone hostage. This thread is irresponsible.

quote: You can blame Apple for that one -- they don't have the same full disclosure policy of Microsoft.

This is ****ing hilarious. For one thing, you're assuming a major security breach simply because Apple doesn't write up essays on harmless glitches. For another, you assume that a full disclosure policy means something, when in fact its completely nonbinding and policed internally.

After all this, your real complaint is that Apple's "vendor responses" haven't met your every whim. Give me a break and don't waste everyone's time like this again.

	02-11-2003 06:22									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf You have no proof there is any real danger to users who don't purchase Panther and you certainly cannot accuse Apple of holding anyone hostage. This thread is irresponsible.

You hear Asher?

You provide no proof... you provide NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy Apple, you irresponsible

	02-11-2003 06:57									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf To me that means the bug is minor at best.

So because Apple has a rather lame security policy in hiding the details from people, all bugs are therefore minor?

quote: This is ****ing hilarious. For one thing, you're assuming a major security breach simply because Apple doesn't write up essays on harmless glitches.

Look: from the details released, it is more than enough to know it can cause serious harm. All it takes is one buffer overflow error to compromise a system: that's how MS Blast worked, and we do know that OS X suffered the same kind of flaw.

Just because Apple doesn't release the details on how it's exploited doesn't make this a minor flaw -- a buffer overflow that leads to elevated privledges and running the code of an attacker's choice is bad, period.

quote: After all this, your real complaint is that Apple's "vendor responses" haven't met your every whim. Give me a break and don't waste everyone's time like this again.

Haven't met my every whim?

Apple did not plan on patching earlier versions of OS X. They said this to @Stake, and they said this in their BugTraq disclosures -- they just now said they would patch them, because of the bad PR.