31-10-2003 00:34									#1
	Fortify All "Exploit"? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The game is still locked up due to GWTs use of the fortify all "exploit". We have also used this in our game many times and generally do not consider it an exploit.

Quite a bit of debate is raging at 1BC about the use of this between Lucky and Miccofl.

It is very rare that I agree with anything Lucky says, but in this case I think he is right. Does anyone else feel that miccofl is just whining? Perhaps it is time that Apolyton weighs in on the issue as well?

	31-10-2003 01:21									#2
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I posted there, since we had the very same discussion here and I personally tested that F-P and others were right telling me it was no exploit (the units are actually NOT fortified, even if they look that way).

	31-10-2003 01:41									#3
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I think that CGN is saying that GWT moved a stack of units to a spot in which no ther units were ther previous and with out a road in order to preserve at least a part of a movement point, then used a command like: "go to, then fortify"

This would have the effect of GWT moving on 10BC, then using the "last player" exploit to get those units to fortify in 10 AD(which comes at the end of their turn) before CGN can execute it's moves in 10AD. Those units are not just "appearing" to be fortified, they are because of the exploit. Of course GWT's actions prohibit their units from moving on the next turn, but the damage is done. At least that is the way I see it and CGN has every right to complain.

This exploit I am talking about is not the "fort all" command. This exploit is only available to the last Civ to play in a certain year. When we started the game, this player was Gren. Now that they are gone, it is GWT.

	31-10-2003 01:49									#4
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Is there a command like "goto, then fortify"?

I do not think I understand the problem...

I know of the "goto" or "road to" trick (the units move at the end of the round) - but I am clueless as to how to use it to get your stack fortified sooner than "usual".

Can someone enlighten me, please? (not meant ironically)

	31-10-2003 03:35									#5
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I am in the same boat as Vondrack. All I can figure out at the moment is that they are complaining about the fortify all trick.

If that's not what this whole thing is about, then I have absolutely no idea what is going on and would also like a clear explanation.

	31-10-2003 05:48									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

BF is right, and I have just posted at the UN to try and straighten things out. Let me repeat that post here to see if it can help clarify what BF means:

quote: GWT is last in line for the save. If they move units and fortify them when not all of them have move points remaining, vondrack is correct - they appear to be fortified but will not gain the benefits until the next turn. BUT, something new, introduced a patch or two ago, is that any pending orders such as this fortify all command will go into effect IMMEDIATELY upon the new turn being started. Hence in 10 BC, GWT moved and fortifed all of their units. Then the turn clicks over to 10AD, and the units fortify before anyone has a chance to do ANYTHING. This is a bug that applies in MP only to the last player in a turn. The exploit is that you could use this, were you last in line in a MP game, to exhaust all your troops' movement points one turn and yet be fortified before any of your opponents could play again in the next turn.

You will find that, even in SP games, your workers who have orders will have completed their orders before you start your turn - in fact they will complete their orders before anything else happens, which is why we sometimes have a road built in the ISDG and gain the extra trade from it before we can move our units, yet the worker itself cannot move - it's movement points for that turn were used up in building the road - BEFORE anything else happened!

This would be the order things are counted in at the start of a turn:

Pending unit orders (fortify, road, clear etc.)
Trade, food counted
Pop growth
Shields counted
Production
Moving your units around....

Somewhere in there is disorder and celebrations checks.

It is just that, for the case of the last player in an MP game, their pending unit orders (or perhaps just the fortify all command - have not tested this yet) are completed before anyone else's.

	31-10-2003 11:01									#7
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I can't help but feel that what BF and MrWIA say is incorrect. I personally tested this with a hotseat (thus, MP) game under PtW 1.27 and the 'exploit' was simply not there. I tried it both for the last and non-last players.

The fortify bonus did not kick in immediately after one round ended and another one started - but only after a full round passed since the command was issued on mp-exhausted units...?

I will set up a scenario later today to give it some more testing...

	31-10-2003 12:56									#8
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vondrack, if the game allows for a second move with the last player (that has been confirmed), it is wise to assume it would allow the player to be "fortified" as that second move as an alternative. Does it not?

	31-10-2003 13:10									#9
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I have confirmed that fortify all results in a bonus for players late in the sequence of the turn vs players earlier than them in the sequence.

In short, what Dubya described is correct. I sould say though, that it could benefit players earlier than last. It should benefit anyone who is later in the sequence than their opponent.

	31-10-2003 15:18									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

nye, can you describe your test scenario? Assume I am totaly dumb and list every single move, please. I must be missing something trivial, because I have personally tested what I believe we are speaking here about, and I came to the conclusion that the fortify bonus was not applied until it was your turn again (not "between the rounds"). Therefore, I am most likely still not getting what the problem is.

I have just returned from a squash/ricochet match (won all four of them! ) and feel really tired, both physically and mentally, so bear with me, please. I distinctly remember our discussion here over the 'fortify all' trick some time ago (where I was eventually proved wrong, first believing it was a dirty exploit). How is this situation between GWT and CGN different from what we were discussing in our forum? If you are not aware of what I am referring to, I will go and look for the thread...

	31-10-2003 17:15									#11
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NYE: I think what your saying is your test says it works like this:

Fortify All for every player kicks in
Player 1 turn
Player 2 turn
Player 3 turn
....
End of turn go back to start....

Thus if Player 2 used fortify all, his units would be foritified for real on player 1's turn, but not player 3 etc's turns......

	31-10-2003 19:53									#12
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What Werv describes is correct; movement refreshes for everyone at the same time - start of the new year - and so even though it may not be Apolyton's turn to move their units, those units do HAVE movement points available at the start of the new year, and therefore ARE actually fortified.

I apologize if I didn't make this clear sooner; in most MP, it's simultaneous turns, so the problem we're running up against here doesn't exist - everyone gets their movement and fortification back simultaneously. It's the kind of distinction which is very important to you and utterly irrelevant to most MP. Sure, player 6 gets his movement back at the same time as player 1, but we all move at the same time, so who cares? In PBEM, I can see why people would suddenly care that Player 6 gets his movement points back at the same time as Player 1.

(Is vaguely pleased to have actually added something useful about mechanics rather than strategy for once.)

	31-10-2003 22:04									#13
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Screw it.

I redid my hotseat test - and again found out you were all wrong: units were NOT fortified until it was your (sub)turn again.

But then, I decided I would do it with a staged PBEM game, to see whether it is the same there... and found out you were right. The units WERE fortifed starting with the new round.

Here is the test for those that wish to see themselves:

1. load the attached save; French turn (the game preserves the seed)
2. move Jean NW-S-NW (7-2-7)
3. move Serge NW-S-NW (7-2-7)
4. 'fortify all' Jean & Serge
5. move Simon SW-SW (1-1) and fortify him
6. move Lucien SW (1) and skip the rest of his turn (space)

7. end the turn and save the game as Test2.SAV

Now, test three variants:

A8. load Test2.SAV
A9. move Chris E (6) and attack fortified Simon SE (3); this is only to use up some RNG values...
A10. let Craig attack unfortified Lucien - the result is DADAA (D for a round won by defender, A for attacker)
A11. end turn, not saving (Esc)

B8. load Test2.SAV again
B9. move Chris E (6) and attack fortified Simon SE (3); this is only to use up some RNG values...
B10. let Craig attack the 'fortified all' stack of Jean & Serge - the result is DDD (D for a round won by defender, A for attacker)
B11. end turn, not saving (Esc)

C8. load Test2.SAV again
C9. move Chris E (6) and attack fortified Simon SE (3); this is only to use up some RNG values...
C10. let Craig attack fortified Simon - the result is DDD (D for a round won by defender, A for attacker)

As the results clearly show, Jean/Serge enjoy the same defensive bonus as Simon, unlike unfortified Lucien. A bonus bestowed upon them by the 'fortify all' trick.



I am so sad. Had I only tested that properly when we were debating it. I thought that hotseat would have it the same...

This is definitely an exploit. A major one. One that favours teams that are later in the playing order - they can basically move their stacks permanently fortified!

I am really unhappy about I was right weeks ago when we first discussed it. Because when we used the fortify all trick on our stack, we were using a dirty exploit on GCA (since they come before us in the playing order).

I request that we STOP using the 'fortify all' command altogether, at least in wars waged agains teams that come before us in the playing order.

And I suppose I should post at 1BC, too.

	31-10-2003 23:23									#14
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IIRC, we didn't use the fort all on any of our War stacks, because they are all unforted at the begining of the next turn. I know this, because when I load the game to start setting up my orders for the next turn, I have always had to fort all (without moving them) of the stacks to get to the workers and such. THEN, when I have no other Units left, do I start to do my MoI stuff.

E_T

	31-10-2003 23:38									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, we did use it - at least once, on the first turn of war. If you load 130BC, you will see that our stack E of the abandoned Catcher In the Rye is all fortified, although we used up all its movement points in the previous turn.

	01-11-2003 00:01									#16
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You can rest easily vondrack, beause GCA did not attack that stack. Believe me, it's not because the stack appeared fortified, it's because GCA knew it was a losing proposition to attack it. They way thye conducted themselves on that turn was to 'hit and run' They ended up hiting a MI that was NW of the stack.

But, yes, this should be brought up at 1BC and a vote taken by the teams to see if we should decalre this move an exploit and thus not legal for play from the moment we vote on it. Also, if Sea going vessels enjoy a defensive fortification bonus, even against the Barb Galley's, then we should also stop using the "fort all" command with the units inside of our Galleys.

BTW, good work on your testing. I had no idea that Hot Seat was treated different than PBEM as far as MP play goes.

	01-11-2003 01:42									#17
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From what we have already learned a long time ago, Hot Seat works differently than PBEM. Although I don't know why, it SHOULD work the same.....

E_T

	01-11-2003 01:48									#18
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For crying out loud, is this GWT ever going to replay their turn?

this is becoming inexcusable.